Silly Season 2016/2017

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Manoah2u
Manoah2u
61
Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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If that was the case, then those test/development drivers would not be test/development drivers but actual race drivers.
Neither Perez or Hulkenberg are 'paydrivers' though offcourse Perez does bring a wealthy sponsorship deal through Carlos Slim,
but almost all drivers have some form of 'sponsorship' accompanying them that brings a benefit to the particular team.

You could actually say that for someone like Hamilton too. Offcourse he is a good enough driver to actually be able to home in WCC's and WDC's,
but if you would reason that the Merc Wxx F1 car is fast enough anyway to home in the WCC and atleast one of them the WDC, then you are obviously
rather 'free' in driver choise.

Fact is, Hamilton is a very popular 'brand', and having someone like that aboard brings a investment return that is absolutely worth it.

Now to go back to a team like Force India, you might argue that 'Perez' is not a guaranteed top+ driver like Hamilton,Alonso, etc. [ though it would be interesting to see what
he can do in a front-running car ]. But he brings with Slim sponsorship money what Hamilton does by having become a 'brand'.

The interesting side of it all is that if Perez actually would get a real competetive car like the Mercedes or the RedBull, and he really turns out to be a driver capable or in the
caliber of Hamilton himself, Rosberg, Raikkonen, or Vettel for example - in other words ; he gets that car in P1 or P2 just as good as his teammate does - then Perez, in the end,
might even be a bigger interest for teams because he is

a) brandable -> Lewis wasn't the 'Walking moneymaking celebrity' he is today back during his debut in 2007, after all, so why couldn't Perez become a Celeb playboy?
b) sponsorship connection -> Perez is directly linked to Carlos Slim, so he can bring in TelMex money, which is capable and in the right circumstances surely willing to throw
so much money to the team that no other sponsor alone is remotely close to achieve.

for example; let's say Carlos Slim is WILLING to slam in 100 million EUR for each season, if Ferrari hires him and gives him a championship-winning car.
Ferrari themselves already have for example 150 million in own money to throw at it, and then they have their own sponsors like UPS, Shell, Marlboro to burn, lets say that
equals another 250 million. offcourse that 400 million gets spend with or without Sergio, true. But then Sergio also brought in a mexican oil sponsor to Force India despite
Force India running a Mercedes engine of which im 100% sure isn't running on that mexican oil. Lets say this is worth about 15 million eur.
Then imagine Perez' paycheck comes in the form of 1 million EUR - hypothetically.

So, Perez brings a team through direct income:

115 Million EUR minus 1 million salary equals 114 million USD, AND is capable to be a WDC.

Now Hamilton offcourse brings in a vast amount of potential and experience, where Perez simply isn't at yet. So that might speak for Hamilton over Perez.
But then, years of topdrivers still haven't brought the wanted results. So Ferrari might be open to something 'different' than just simply 'a topdriver'.
A combination of Hamilton - Alonso would sound great, but if the driver isn't neccesarily the reason they're not getting the results they need, then i repeat,
they could reason they must be open to something 'different'.

Now money speaks, and let's say Ferrari would have 400 million USD to burn. let's say Lewis and Alonso would cost 50 million each. that's 300 million left to
spend for the car.
Another option - something different - would be for example; Perez - Button.
Let's say Perez wants 1 million, and Button wants 2 million.
Suddenly, Ferrari has only spend 3 million and thus has 397 million EUR to spend on the car, that's a whopping 97 million MORE than with Lewis and Alonso aboard.
That's not all, as Perez brings in 115 million just by being there through sponsorship deals.
So that makes a total of 512 million EUR all of a sudden to burn. That's 212 MILLION EURmore.

Knowing neither Alonso, neither Raikkonen, neither Massa, neither Vettel have given them the WCC they are looking for - hell, they're not even winning now - one
could argue the 'rule' to have such a capacity driver could for a change be 'overlooked' in favor of someone like Perez and Button [ remember, Button is a WDC after all
and superbly experienced ].

So Ferrari has 212 Million EUR to burn into technical and team structure by hiring Perez-Button instead Hamilton-Alonso [ example] .

Now, Newey offcourse is rather busy with Aston Martin and RedBull, but no doubt Ferrari is hot to hire his services. Let's imagine Ferrari offering Newey 100
million EUR for each season, and a couple million extra when he gives them a WCC winning car.

Ferrari STILL would have 112 million EUR to burn in technical and personnel/team structure;

Strategy, pit crew, etc. Let's say they decide to spend 3 million to buy the entire williams pitcrew and it's pitcrew 'head' for a year of their services. let's say that's a
crew of 12, that means about what, 250.000 EUR each. I wouldn't hesitate for a second if i was asked. I dont believe for a second williams is paying anything near
that money. So 109 million left to burn. half a million for a good strategist, another half million for somebody better qualified in tires and you still have 108 million to burn.

I think spending 54 million on the engine [incl. gearbox, ers etc] EXTRA and 54 million on the car's body, aero and suspension EXTRA is still a conciderable benefit, especially
remembering that they had about 400 million EUR to spend on their car either way, this is all extra to 'gain from' compared to hiring Alonso and Hamilton instead of Perez and Button.

Personally, I don't think Hamilton and Alonso weigh up that much that they would 'nihilize' ALL that money. Remember, 212 million EUR LESS to spend, no Newey aboard, no Williams
pitcrew, etc.

Don't get me wrong i concider Alonso and Hamilton better than Perez and Button, but evidence is that assumed better drivers than both Perez and Button in the form of Vettel, Raikkonen, Alonso and Massa have NOT brought in results.

Long story short;

Perez definately has potential to end up at Ferrari. The big question is why they decided to go on with Raikkonen for another year. I rather think this is primarily based upon what they have already 'developed' for the 2017 year and the big rule changes surely would have them concider Raikkonen more than would have been the case had the rules been the same as this year.
They also have another year to see how Perez pans out to be after the rule changes.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

ChrisDanger
ChrisDanger
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Joined: 30 Mar 2011, 09:59

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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basti313 wrote:This sounds crazy to me. All Wehrlein needs to do is to keep his head down and stay in the Merc family. Like this he will get a Merc Works team seat in 2018 or 2019.
Why should he start to go crazy with a Haas seat???
In today's Driver's Press Conference Wehrlein said Mercedes are managing his negotiations, so wherever he goes it will be on their command.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
61
Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Makes you wonder whether he really is 'that interesting' as one might argue that if he potentially is 'the next rosberg, massa, etc' then he himself could have something to argue for where he -wants- to be placed.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

edu2703
edu2703
32
Joined: 03 Jun 2015, 23:47
Location: Brazil

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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http://globoesporte.globo.com/ge/videos ... a/5408463/

The link above is a video published today by Globo Esporte that talks about the negotiations between Felipe Nasr and Force India.

Brazilian Portuguese sounds strange to me, but I understood many things. In the first part, Reginaldo Leme explains how are the negotiations. Nasr is very,very close to signing a contract with the team. His sponsors still need to adjust some minor details (Pay the money. Force India is asking for a smaller amount than Nasr's sponsor currently pays for Sauber), but it's 99% sure Nasr will be in FI next year.

He also said Bernie Ecclestone is directly involved in the negotiations as well as a curious fact: Nasr was very close to signing with Williams until the Italian GP, because Bottas was in advanced talks with Renault, but some financial problems forced Bottas to stay with Williams. Williams had to close the doors for Nasr because they had previously signed with Lance Stroll.

In the second part, two F1 journalists make some comments. They said the fact of Nasr be denying any contact with Force India is a strategy to avoid retaliations from his team. They are convinced in the last GP, Sauber sabotaged Nasr's car after rumors about the negotiations between him and FI have been published by reliable sources.

Particularly, I don't believe in any conspiracy theory and I don't think Sauber would sabotage one of their cars just because one of their drrivers is negotiating with another team.

ChrisDanger
ChrisDanger
26
Joined: 30 Mar 2011, 09:59

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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edu2703 wrote:The link above is a video published today by Globo Esporte that talks about the negotiations between Felipe Nasr and Force India.
Interesting, thanks. I'd be happy for Nasr to be in a better team, just to show what he can do.

edu2703 wrote:Particularly, I don't believe in any conspiracy theory and I don't think Sauber would sabotage one of their cars just because one of their drrivers is negotiating with another team.
As soon as you said "In the second part, two F1 journalists make some comments." I knew what followed would probably be nonsense.

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Vasconia
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Joined: 30 Aug 2012, 10:45
Location: Basque Country

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Manoah2u wrote:
Perez definately has potential to end up at Ferrari. The big question is why they decided to go on with Raikkonen for another year. I rather think this is primarily based upon what they have already 'developed' for the 2017 year and the big rule changes surely would have them concider Raikkonen more than would have been the case had the rules been the same as this year.
They also have another year to see how Perez pans out to be after the rule changes.
I think you are right. Raikkonen has a lot of experience and for 2017 this will be very important. Moreover his performance has been pretty good this season, so the team has another good reason to keep him another year.

Facts Only
Facts Only
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Joined: 03 Jul 2014, 10:25

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Raikonen has improved his performance this year which has helped but also its worth noting that he has a good relationship with Seb' (apparently) AND he is the last (and only driver on the grid) to bring Ferrari a championship, could they really sack him?
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Offcourse they could sack him. They did that before, gave him a lot of money to leave, then a couple years later, gave him a lot of money again to return.
I don't think the relation with Seb should be a decisive factor. Offcourse it has it's benefits, but then again, one could also wonder whether 'friends' push eachother.

I also don't think Raikkonen is going to stay much longer at Ferrari by his own desire. Might he go to Mercedes or RedBull if he was offered a WDC car - hypothetically ?
If he is handed a paycheck big enough, and a guaranteed shot at wins and the title, me just might. But i rather think he's had his time and will join in on the rest of the
'former' generation retiring from F1 and going into less 'time consuming' alternatives like WEC, LeMans, or Ferrari Challenge series. Or just hang back, eat icecream,
drink booze and get fat on his yacht in Monaco and enjoy his life however he wants it. Kimi doesn't give af.

I think the F1 season of 2018 is really likely to see Kimi retired from the F1 field. I wouldn't be surprised to see Vettel retire after the 2018 season aswell, to be honest.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

User avatar
Vasconia
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Joined: 30 Aug 2012, 10:45
Location: Basque Country

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Manoah2u wrote:Offcourse they could sack him. They did that before, gave him a lot of money to leave, then a couple years later, gave him a lot of money again to return.
I don't think the relation with Seb should be a decisive factor. Offcourse it has it's benefits, but then again, one could also wonder whether 'friends' push eachother.

I think the F1 season of 2018 is really likely to see Kimi retired from the F1 field. I wouldn't be surprised to see Vettel retire after the 2018 season aswell, to be honest.
A good relation its a very important factor, lets remember what happened in 2007 in McLaren when the relation is not good or the management of this relation is not good. Its a combination of factors(good performance, good relations with Seb, last champino, experience) which makes logic to keep Kimi in 2017. I do think that he will retire in 2017 unless the car is so good that see chances of winning another WC.

Seriously? Why should Seb retire in 2018?

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Any driver should maintain a good relation with their teammate. Seb and Kimi being 'friends' only is fun for them and for the fan idea. as for actual results, if grosjean was there and there would not be 'unhealthy' rivalry (like Alonso-Hamilton or Sainz-Verstappen) it wouldnt change a thing. there is no need to sign a 'friend'.

and why would seb retire? same reason has been mentioned for a long time; he's not going to stay as long as Alonso at Ferrari without results and he's not going elsewhere after Ferrari.
Seb is clearly getting less motivated and enjoys races less and less. Reminds me of Button constantly having to deal with scr*wup Mclarens.

Also, Ferrari can also decide to 'ditch' Vettel. If one speaks of loyalty, then Raikkonen has earned and brought Ferrari results earning loyalty. Seb so far has granted them a win, but a couple of negative comments too much and they'll turn sour on him fast.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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WaikeCU
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Joined: 14 May 2014, 00:03

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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In my opinion, Newey won't go to Ferrari even if he is offered a large sum of money. I think Newey is looking the bigger picture. It's not only about racing pedigree and history, but also the mentality, politics, culture and the innovative approach a team works in F1. I think Ferrari's lacks in some way compared to other teams in those areas. Ferrari are trying to emerge from this old fashioned way of working, but they don't seem to be able to do that, looking at the restructure within the team. In honestly, I think Ferrari would rather put a former World Champion or a proven driver in a Ferrari than a young talent.

Newey has all he wants at Red Bull. It's an innovative business, it's young and fresh. Red Bull only works with the best in all areas of sports and also thinks about the future with its own young talent program. Only reason why they aren't winning at the moment is more because of its partners. Renault that is still inferior to Mercedes. Regarding how the car is built and shaped, it's probably the best out there.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Newey getting free hand to develop the next Ferrari flagship (LaFerrari successor), and work on 'scuderia' or 'challenge stradale' versions of their car park would bring quite a exciting challenge for Newey surely. Full control of F1 car design and development picking his own staff, and a workable budget. A hundred million EUR each friggin year. That's half a billion in 5 years time.
Free Ferrari for commuting. Ferrari private jet available for travel, including Maranello - UK residence (air) travel. He can be in Maranello in what, 2 hours flight? And have his own villa near to accomodate his family at any moment he wants to.
A WCC and a WDC thanks to Newey equals lifetime Italian honorary member. Free pizza. Free pasta.
Wear the red. Do what nobody could after Schumacher left. And do it with somebody else than Vettel.
Perez and/or Bottas for example.

And again. A € 100.000.000,00 EUR paycheck each year, with a € 10.000.000,00 EUR bonus for achieving WCC, and € 25.000,00 EUR for each podium spot achieved.
+ free travel in a multi-million Ferrari private jet. + free lease on a Ferrari payed Villa within a 30 minute commute to Maranello + Free Ferrari LaFerrari + Personal driver in a luxury
Ferrari-powered car + Full freedom on next Ferrari supercar and a certain % income from sales on that model + freedom on Challenge Stradale editions and certain % profit from sales to these editions.

That means in 5 years time, he has the option to see his net worth and income grow into:
€ 500.000.000 EUR + let's say 3 WCC's = € 30.000.000,00 + 100 podiums x 2 drivers = € 5.000.000,00
equalling € 535.000.000,00 EUR.

5 years is reasonable amount of time. Ferrari is not a new team, they're rather 'at the front' already so in comparison it's less effort to get Ferrari back there compared to getting RedBull there.

I think Newey would sign immediately if he has finished his 'Aston Martin F1 road hypercar'. Thanks boys, i'm off to the reds now. Good luck, but not too much, as i'll make sure you'll get chain whipped by the Scuderia next year on the track.

It suprises me it hasn't happened yet.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

Facts Only
Facts Only
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Joined: 03 Jul 2014, 10:25

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Maybe Ferrari just dont like changing drivers, correct me if I'm wrong but in the last 20 years Ferrari have only had 7 drivers:

Schumacher
Irvine
Barrichallo
Massa
Raikonen
Alonso
Vettel

(i'm not including the various subs' and stand in's)

That strikes me as a very low driver turnover.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

User avatar
Vasconia
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Location: Basque Country

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Facts Only wrote:Maybe Ferrari just dont like changing drivers, correct me if I'm wrong but in the last 20 years Ferrari have only had 7 drivers:

Schumacher
Irvine
Barrichallo
Massa
Raikonen
Alonso
Vettel

(i'm not including the various subs' and stand in's)

That strikes me as a very low driver turnover.
Half of those years were during Michael´s reign so it was easier, they only needed a good second driver.

But I would like to see the same stability with the staff.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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A stabile staff definately would help, but then again the question rises on how 'long' you should concider keeping inadequate personnel. Ferrari somehow has a weakness to keep hiring people that are either unfit, or just simply run too emotional - in other words, a lack of calmth. The pitstop incident was a clear example of what a absolute mess Ferrari is today. Humans are humans , humans make errors - true. But the real problem here is that there is no unity. There is no whole, it looks like it's every man for himself with the goal of being 'that guy' that makes Ferrari better - but that's not how it works. If you don't work as a team, you fail.

The simple truth is the man with the wheelgun wasn't finished yet. Mistake 1, you might say.
Mistake 2 then offcourse was that kimi got greenlighted and drove off.

But it didn't end there. Nobody i repeat nobody of Ferrari ran towards the car of kimi to a) grab the car together, roll it back, and see if it can be fixed so the race could go on still. b) no single member with brains on the matter ran towards kimi's car to see if there actually really was undrivable damage. yes there were sparks, but there were no sparks whilst kimi driving in the pitlane.

Instead, everybody just panicked, looked and blamed eachother for a fail, and nobody absolutely nobody went to kimi or his car. it was embarrasing and not worthy for a team as Ferrari.

I think the 'frustration' and 'emotion' at Ferrari is also starting to negatively affect Vettel, whom is making more and more 'twitchy' moves and judgement errors. The whole damn team is too stressed out. They need to take a 'chill pill'.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"