Williams/Virgin behind EBD off throttle ban.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

It appears Ross Brawn wants the EBD to continue in current form and is against a ban. Smashing to pieces the hocus pocus fantasy being bandied on this thread.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91617

[copperkipper1]

HRT think it's illegal & may protest. HRT suck & dont deserve to have an opinion within F1 loool.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So we now have HRT making noises about protesting at the next race.

What do Williams, Virgin and HRT have in common I wonder? Talk about using your nut and reading between the lines!

Also aren't Virgin and HRT newbies? Wonder what promises were made to them upon entering....
And Williams? Weren't they the first team to sign up the new Concorde agreement?

The mind boggles how Mercedes and ferraris name were being mentioned!

[xpensive]

The mind boggles when thinking about how much closer to RBR both Mercedes and McLaren would be if the EBD is taken away?

Even the occational Mercedes win perhaps, but thankfully for me, I don't have to consider Nomex as long as they don't!

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Actually, McLaren would suffer.

And the reason for it is likely because they run the biggest diffuser in the paddock. Their EBD is nearly a copy of red bulls, an it gained them over a second in testing.
Equally Mercedes have an FEE that has been in the works since Renaults has appeared. All publications worth their salt are aware of it.

I believe EBD is not the reason red bull are quick. It's certainly relative to Cosworth, but their speed is in how they can run high rake and a wing that can bend FIA regulations. Take away the exhaust and there is no guarantee any team other than Cosworth will get a relative gain.

[...]

[Boost]

What I don't get technically is how you can get a gas-flow though the engine with a closed throttle, or is it not closed?

Can anyone xplain how this works when you're "off-thottle" and why it would be so difficult for Cosworth to develop?

The throttle isn't closed. The rules for the ECU and throttle state that the throttle must be closed when the peddle is released and 100% open when the throttle is fully down (this is in part to eliminate start maps which give more control at lower throttle openings), but there is no requirement for the throttle plate to be linear to peddle movement. You can have a map, as an example, which would give 80% opening for anything from 5-95% peddle movement.

[Hangaku]

So, a "major" team that is running the Cosworth engine this season is also having their worst season start in their history, and they are asking for rule clarifications, which in turn is causing a big stir in the paddock.

This has happened a lot in recent years, and I wonder if it's exactly this sort of attitude that's put Williams in the position they are in right now.

I used to think highly of them.

[i70q7m7ghw]

This exhaust blown diffuser stuff just sounds like a load of hot air to me...

[i70q7m7ghw]

Actually, McLaren would suffer.

And the reason for it is likely because they run the biggest diffuser in the paddock.

Please explain how McLaren's diffuser is bigger than everyone elses.

[donskar]

Hold on a second. My brain is slowly catching up.

Are we saying that Renault has perfected this technique, but it is too complicated for Ferrari and Mercedes to figure out? No, that can't be. And if Cosworth can't figure (or afford) out how to do it, how will they ever be competitive developing an all-new turbo engine?

And WTF do teams like the impotent HRT and the (sadly) irrelevant Williams have to do with directing design trends in F1?

[xpensive]

...
And WTF do teams like the impotent HRT and the (sadly) irrelevant Williams have to do with directing design trends in F1?

Brilliant Don, this is xactly why I doubt those two miserables were alone on this.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Its very simple Donskar.

3 Cosworth powered teams have come out and said that they would either protest the "off throttle blowing", or that they requested "clarification".

The problem with retarding ignition and burning fuel in the exhaust pipe, and doing so differently for 3 teams is expensive for Cosworth.
They entered F1 on the premise of an engine freeze, and they have budgeted cost into the customer engines. The margins will of course be tight, hence why any further "arms race" would end up costing Cosworth money and even the potential to supply at a loss.

Developing EBD off-throttle blowing may be too expensive for Cosworth to justify. They already have a system, but it does involve continuous refinement as we have seen with many non Cosworth powered teams.

I would bet my life Cosworth turned round to their teams and told them any additional EBD development would have to be footed by them. In turn, the Cosworth teams would be hamstrung by not having the most effective EBD on the grid.

There is far too much pointing in Cosworths direction with this. As if to add even more fire to the inferno we have this on Autosport on Saturday.

With new regulations, while being welcome from the point of view of innovation, what would never be welcome is creating a financial space race. That is not what we want at a time when we are emerging from the most difficult economic time for many, many teams"But what we want to do is to be in F1 long-term and to provide highly-competitive engines, but engines that are also affordable and sustainable for our customers – because without that there isn't a business.

Cosworth may be an engineering firm, but why are they focusing on the cost when the regs havent even been decided yet? I'll leave you be the judge of that.

[andrew]

Hold on a second. My brain is slowly catching up.

Are we saying that Renault has perfected this technique, but it is too complicated for Ferrari and Mercedes to figure out? No, that can't be. And if Cosworth can't figure (or afford) out how to do it, how will they ever be competitive developing an all-new turbo engine?

And WTF do teams like the impotent HRT and the (sadly) irrelevant Williams have to do with directing design trends in F1?

My theory is that Williams, Virgin and HRT have asked the FIA for clarification before spending vast amounts of cash that they don't have on developing EBDs.

The penny has now dropped with MrW and they are acting after looking into the matter.

No fault of Williams, Virgin or HRT, but MrW who has finally woken up. Simple as that.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Please explain how McLaren's diffuser is bigger than everyone elses.

Sure thing.

Their rear wing sports vanes along its lower edge. Sauber also have much smaller solution on their current car. Having bodywork in this area effectively extends the diffuser sidewalls by some 30cm, which helps maximise the expansion ratio of the diffuser for more downforce. Such is the shape of the flow out of the diffuser, the bodywork needs to be vaned to allow the flow to expand.
McLaren have formed four vanes into the allowable area. For the test, the rear-pointing exhausts were lined up with these vanes, thus the exhaust flow will be routed by these vanes, accelerating flow inside the diffuser for even more downforce.

An EBD ban, would hit Mclaren's concept hard. They went to town on the diffuser and any change there would have big repercussions for them. No wonder Whitmarsh is tentative.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

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