A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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i70q7m7ghw
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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doink wrote:With the tire degradation, these things lose pace on each lap, so once you've done one run, then your second run on the same set will have to be pretty special, as you'd need to better your previous time with less grippy tires. Therefore, when giving an allocation of tires, you will get teams going out and trying a second lap, but most of the time it'd be futile. The only way to do this would be to allow a stupid amount of tires per session and that's not in keeping with environmental and cost factors.
I'm talking about an additional 3 sets. So in theory there is 1 set for each session, but they can use them when they like. If they use all 3 sets they can dip in to their race tyres.

I understand your point about having to ship more tyres around the world. Perhaps they could reduce the race allocation by 1 set, and maybe the practice allocation? They don't use all the tyres for the race anyway.

i70q7m7ghw
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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nipo wrote: And unlike most people here, I don't really think Pirelli needs to fix the performance of the hards. Button's 3-stop worked, and it shows that alternative strategies are possible. If you make the performance of the hards closer to the options, it would make it too predictable and a clear strategy will come out which most people will choose. Currently that is not the case, it is a little bit unclear for teams whether a 3-stop or a 4-stop is better, and you could gamble to sacrifice grid position - it might work out, it might not, and that's great!
They changed the hard compound for Spain to make it last longer, so they have already fixed it. There was a worry they made it too slow but in the race this didn't seem to be the case. A tyre that is 2 seconds slower per lap is useless in the race, because a driver on option tyres could do 10 laps and already be a pitstop infront of you. The performance difference between the 2 compounds would effectively be slower than an additional pitstop. Pirelli were aiming for a 1.5 second difference, and in the race it looked like it might have been a bit closer to this.

lebesset
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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surely what counts is not the ultimate speed of the tyre , but it's average over it's life compared to the other compound

I can only make an empirical statement but I would say that the hard only lost 1 second /lap compared to the soft ,, and with that saving a pit stop .......

having said that would love to see the records
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

i70q7m7ghw
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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Yes, what I was saying was that the tyre didn't turn out to be 2 seconds slower but if it had been, it would have been effectively useless for the race.

feynman
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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I'd maybe go the other way, instead of throwing more and more truckloads of air-freighted tyres at teams, whatabout one set of hard tyres allocated solely for qualifying. That's your lot, make them last through to end of Q3.

Means 107% actually means 107%, not soft v hard. Means qualifying pace more readily equates to race pace. Means teams don't look at Webber and Heidfeld and decide to skip qualifying altogether (cos everyone will all still have their fresh race allocation, no benefit to sitting-out). Means any mistakes/extra runs in Q1/Q2 aren't erased as if they never happened with new sets of tyres, those extra laps and flatspots to make the cutoff time will be baked into the tyres for Q3.

Also probably means that after the first coupla laps of really juicy goodness have been burned, the fall-off would quickly begin to flatten off (before it reached the cliff), so I'd suggest that would mean a much better chance of extra running in Q3. Vettel would have gone for it on Saturday, and Webber forced to cover him, rather than both unclipping the steering wheel with minutes on the clock.

And cheaper too.

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dren
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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I like the format now. There is a lot of strategy going on from the start of qualifying to the end of the race.
Honda!

DaveKillens
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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dren wrote:I like the format now. There is a lot of strategy going on from the start of qualifying to the end of the race.
Yup, me too. I believe the format and tires aren't at fault for the lessening of importance and action at the end of Q3. If there were three teams seriously fighting each other, with maybe a fourth threatening every so often, we would instead be ranting on about the wild and crazy qualifying going on.

But in a ying-yang kind of way, this lessening of action during qualifying generates interesting options in strategy that we have witnessed. You lose a little here, you gain a little there....

The fact is that Pirelli have created tires with profound wear characteristics that have completely changed the game, and in fact it's what these tires do (and don't) that drive the strategies we are witnessing.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

feynman
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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DaveKillens wrote:The fact is that Pirelli have created tires with profound wear characteristics that have completely changed the game, and in fact it's what these tires do (and don't) that drive the strategies we are witnessing.
After seeing what Pirelli has done, I reckon all right-minded F1 viewers should be busy gathering their pitchforks and flaming-torches for an assault on the gates of Castle Bridgestone. Hamashima san on the ramparts throwing down hot oil and indestructable option tyres on the ugly crowd below.

andrew
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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The tyres were made as requested by the FIA. Bridgestone and Pirelli are not at fault.

feynman
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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The Bridgestones were made as requested by Bridgestone PR dept.

The Pirellis were made as requested by FOTA.

Although in saying that, if someone wants to forcefully stick the boot into the FIA for a single tyre source which allowed Bridgestone, with much malice aforethought, to try to bore us all to death, then I won't get in their way.

lebesset
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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bridgestone failed F1 for the same reason as toyota and honda failed as F1 teams , despite their more than ample budgets ; corporate decision making and fear of losing face

the irony is that then ended up doing exactly what they feared

think what you like about pirelli's tyres , they have taken the risk and done what they promised ; whether this costs them commercially is yet to be determined ....personally I hope it doesn't
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

doink
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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Diesel wrote:
doink wrote:With the tire degradation, these things lose pace on each lap, so once you've done one run, then your second run on the same set will have to be pretty special, as you'd need to better your previous time with less grippy tires. Therefore, when giving an allocation of tires, you will get teams going out and trying a second lap, but most of the time it'd be futile. The only way to do this would be to allow a stupid amount of tires per session and that's not in keeping with environmental and cost factors.
I'm talking about an additional 3 sets. So in theory there is 1 set for each session, but they can use them when they like. If they use all 3 sets they can dip in to their race tyres.

I understand your point about having to ship more tyres around the world. Perhaps they could reduce the race allocation by 1 set, and maybe the practice allocation? They don't use all the tyres for the race anyway.
With an additional 3 sets plus your race tires, we'll have most front runners on the prime in Q1 with the bottom end of the grid trying to get into Q2 with a run on the options. Then one flying lap on the options for all teams in Q2, with some trying to eek a second lap out of a set. That leaves 2 sets of options for Q3 and therefore 2 laps for most teams. I can't see that anyone would dip in to their race allocation given this formula.

It would certainly be more exciting, purely because of the extra laps in Q2, if not hugely predictable.

I think the issue stands though that due to the tyre degradation at most tracks, your best lap will be done on a new set of tyres. These Pirelli options are practically throwaway after the the first lap in qualification. Fair enough that teams will try and get a second lap out and that would be interesting, but I think futile.

Do you know exactly how much time these options lose per lap?

alelanza
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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Sure, let's give RB a set of tyres just for qualifying, just so they can show us how much faster they can go once they don't even have to worry about starting the race on the tyres they qualified on.
Alejandro L.

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Pierce89
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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beelsebob wrote:
andrew wrote:Pirelli have designed and built tyres as directed by the FIA.
And in my opinion, they're doing an incredibly good job, with the possible exception of the latest Hards – what they needed to do was make tyres that were only a second a lap slower than the softs, but which degraded slower.
+1 without the DRS the current formula would be close to perfect(if we only had 3.5 liter v12's roaming the track or even a 3.0 v10 would do. but please please please no inline four. 1.6L would be cool if it was a V8 with twin turbo's)
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Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

i70q7m7ghw
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Re: A way to make Q3 more exciting?

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alelanza wrote:Sure, let's give RB a set of tyres just for qualifying, just so they can show us how much faster they can go once they don't even have to worry about starting the race on the tyres they qualified on.
I think McLaren & Ferrari would be even closer in qualifying if they could do more laps. Look at Alonso's lap in spain, it was mighty in an under performing Ferrari.

Qualifying should be all about who has the raw 1 lap speed. I want to see F1 cars on the absolute limit in qualifying. Low fuel, the softest freshest tyres, full revs on the engine, DRS as much as you can, push KERS to the limit. It should be the ultimate challenge for the drivers.

I understand cost saving, and being green etc. but you have to draw a line. You don't see football players calling it a day 15 mins before the end of a football match to save their boots, because they need to make them last the next 2 years.

Cost saving and being green is all well and good as long as it doesn't get in the way of the sport. Otherwise, we might as well ban F1, because the sport is never going to be 'cheap' and it's never going to be 'green'.

Maybe 3 sets of tyres is too much? Maybe 2 sets of qualifying tyres. If everyone is soooo worried about costs then reduce the race allocation by 1 set and maybe reduce the practice allocation by 1 set?