Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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Richard
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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I'm still not sure why Monaco can be compared to Nordscleife. The only link is that they are both heritage tracks. One is super fast with poor safety, the other is very slow with poor safety.

I agree Nordscleife would spectacular to drive, but not much of a spectacle as a spectator, or on TV.

RB7ate9
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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I think the reason why Monaco is still kept on the books over the Nodscleife is that Monaco has most of the points that would make it appealing to F1 as an entertainment venue rather than to the sport.

As Richard pointed out, both have the history and the particular driving challenges that drivers are proud to have run. Monaco, though, is tighter (which leads to more overlapping video coverage and spectator views), has better infrastructure close at hand, the danger comes from the close quarters rather than the speed (Perez and Rosberg's incidents last year not withstanding), and, of course, the glamour that F1 has always been trying to maintain.

My heart skips beats, still, when seeing old footage of racing on the 'ring, and the allure of Monaco has not faded with time - especially with artificially created Monacos in Singapore and *shudder* Valencia.

What should be done is to have a special one-off, non-championship race (like they did in the olden days) where the FIA brings the best and the fastest cars to the 'ring for a major singular event. Then it wouldn't be bound by the regulations set for F1 (meaning longer qualifying sessions, perhaps longer race times, etc.) and perhaps other elements (such as LMP series cars) can be included as well, creating a larger spectacle that will bring it to the fore, much like Le Mans.

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Hail22
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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To Manchild.

So you think its safe like the time when Barrichello went over the manhole cover at Monaco which resulted in a big accident, sure there was no injuries but the risk is higher at Monaco then at any other circuit.

Melbourne and Singapore are street circuits however due to them both being respectively held at a park (Melbourne) and commercial district (Singapore) and even Valencia all of those tracks manholes are located off the circuit.

Monaco is the only track who have proven to be lazy in implementing measures to weld shut manholes.

I think accidents like Kova, Barra, Perez can be summed up similar to Ralf Schumachers accident at Indianapolis we don't need another hospitalised driver.

Its had its day and if the FIA are adamant to bring in horrible V6 pot turbos, then maybe its time to let go of the "Highly risky" Monaco to exchange with the French GP since its only 5 extra hours north from Monaco its a logical compromise...
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve

Richard
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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Hail22 wrote:Melbourne and Singapore are street circuits however due to them both being respectively held at a park (Melbourne) and commercial district (Singapore) and even Valencia all of those tracks manholes are located off the circuit.
Are you sure about that? I can see that Melbourne and Montreal are virtually purpose built parkland circuits, but Singapore and Valencia are on normal streets just like Monaco.

Also, since you mention poor implementation of safety standards, do you not recall the kerb that worked loose in Singapore? As I recall there another incident there with was a bolt pointing up waiting to puncture passing cars.

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FW17
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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Are you sure about that? I can see that Melbourne and Montreal are virtually purpose built parkland circuits, but Singapore and Valencia are on normal streets just like Monaco.
Melbourne track is on a everyday road that circles the lake

Nordschleife race should not be just 300 kms, but longer to make sence to the spectators.

I for one dont think that monaco is enough as the crowing glory of F1 anymore. Monaco has given the sport an off balanced view of the glamor associated with the sport rater than the pinacle of racing technology and driving talent. Spot needs a 24 hr le mans as in endurance racing or indy 500 in the IRL. A 4 hour mad rush through the forest a fortnight after the monaco orgy should fit the sport well in taking it back to its roots.

krisfx
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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WilliamsF1 wrote:
Are you sure about that? I can see that Melbourne and Montreal are virtually purpose built parkland circuits, but Singapore and Valencia are on normal streets just like Monaco.
Melbourne track is on a everyday road that circles the lake

Nordschleife race should not be just 300 kms, but longer to make sence to the spectators.

I for one dont think that monaco is enough as the crowing glory of F1 anymore. Monaco has given the sport an off balanced view of the glamor associated with the sport rater than the pinacle of racing technology and driving talent. Spot needs a 24 hr le mans as in endurance racing or indy 500 in the IRL. A 4 hour mad rush through the forest a fortnight after the monaco orgy should fit the sport well in taking it back to its roots.

I might be missing something, but travelling through the streets of Monaco with barriers inches from you going flat out must take some talent, most of the other tracks have about 2 miles of run off for each corner...

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FW17
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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Qualifying - The cars could start the hotlap as soon as they hit the circuit forget the warmup lap and the lap ends at the pit entry.

The lap time also could be best of 5 of 6 sectors so that caution sectors coud be excluded from timing. Like in the old days qualifying could be made as 2 one hour segments with a practice between and the best of the 2 times considered.

Race Caution - A speed limit can be imposed as soon as caution is out as in IRL, negating the need for the safety car.

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FW17
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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krisfx wrote:

I might be missing something, but travelling through the streets of Monaco with barriers inches from you going flat out must take some talent, most of the other tracks have about 2 miles of run off for each corner...

Yeah, one gets to miss a lot of that with all the scantily clad women and champagne around.

And

F1 cars are more of a spectacle when being inches from the barrier at 300 kmph an hour rather than 150 kmph

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Hail22
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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richard_leeds wrote:
Are you sure about that? I can see that Melbourne and Montreal are virtually purpose built parkland circuits, but Singapore and Valencia are on normal streets just like Monaco.

Also, since you mention poor implementation of safety standards, do you not recall the kerb that worked loose in Singapore? As I recall there another incident there with was a bolt pointing up waiting to puncture passing cars.
I'm sure because i frequent Albert park (parklands) so yeah i'm very well aware of the layout ;)

The kerb isn't a safety device its to prevent cutting corners, also thats poor quality of workmanship which falls under in construction as poor quality control.
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve

Giblet
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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How many cameras would FOM need at that race, and how many cameramen? How many marshals? How many cranes? How many barriers and run off areas? How many corners need to be completely reworked, like the karusel which would ruin the character for the track for so many other series.

The track makes no sense for modern formula 1. How could it make money?

I don't think it is a realistic thought.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

krisfx
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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WilliamsF1 wrote:
krisfx wrote:

I might be missing something, but travelling through the streets of Monaco with barriers inches from you going flat out must take some talent, most of the other tracks have about 2 miles of run off for each corner...

Yeah, one gets to miss a lot of that with all the scantily clad women and champagne around.

And

F1 cars are more of a spectacle when being inches from the barrier at 300 kmph an hour rather than 150 kmph
yeah but I think as people have said, there would have to be run off areas added, so this wouldn't really be the case, as much as i'd love to see the nurburgring added as a track, it would be bad from the spectator point of view, which is I understand why Hockenheim was cut down?

Mandrake
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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Re getting people off the road after an accident: What is done in the VLN / 24h races is employing very heavy yellow flag rules, the section with a crashed car is announced with yellow flags in advance and with double waved yellows come the place of accident. A rescue vehicle merges with the racecar traffic to get to the accident as quickly as possible. While those cars are certainly no F1 cars, a 650 BHP Porsche GT3 RSR can be very fast too, yet it is no problem coping with the rescue vehicle on the track. So even without sideroads, rescuing is pretty much possible.

The closeness of the barriers may be an issue. But I rather crash into a barrier close to the track than into a barrier far enough away so I can line up 90° to it.....

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FW17
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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Image

1957 - 22 laps of fury

manchild
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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Hail22 wrote:..Its had its day and if the FIA are adamant to bring in horrible V6 pot turbos, then maybe its time to let go of the "Highly risky" Monaco to exchange with the French GP since its only 5 extra hours north from Monaco its a logical compromise...
There were racing fans before you and me, for decades, and Monaco was and still is in the top of list of races that must me held in order to keep from becoming soulless. French GP (no matter which circuit), Spa, Monza, Silverstone, Monaco. There should also be German GP at old Hockenheim, but they've first destroyed it with logic you also stick too, and later it was abandoned as boring track with no personality, charm... name isn't enough. Spa is crippled too. Without bus-stop chicane, with tarmac runoff areas instead of grass, without vintage houses they've demolished during redesign, Spa is also nothing but an old name with couple of historical corners.

I'd also like to see Argentina getting GP back, Mexico, US got it but uncertain as it is in recent history, Portugal should get it back, San Marino, Austria.

Another thing, I don't know where you write from, but I'd guess US or Canada. 5 hours away is not the same in Europe as it is in northern America. The whole idea of replacing Monaco with French GP which was removed from calendar in order to fit some middle east or Asian circuit would be again self destructive for F1. F1 Should have French GP since France is the cradle of motorsport, Monaco which is independent should keep its own tradition.

Disposing Monaco to find space for any other venue would be like throwing out Mona Lisa painting from Louvre in order to make space for Lady Gaga poster.

Using Monaco as small change in big monetary transactions such as F1 calendar, is really disrespect of F1 traditional jewels. We have enough of confection for that purpose - Valencia, Singapore, Bahrain, Shanghai, Sepang, Korea, Abu Dhabi, India...

I do not wish any injuries or fatalities, but sooner or later they will happen even on most secure circuits, because accidents are completely unpredictable. If something drops of car like spring that hit Massa, it can cause injury or fatality no matter how secure circuit is designed. Same goes when car gets airborne, or for pileups, when cars jump on each other, get in flames or whatever.

Regarding incident with unwelded manhole in Monaco, I can reply with this. Chinese circuit, a brand new circuit, second GP ever held on it, and yet drain grill caused incident just as manhole cover did in vintage Monaco.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEHuiukKOdQ[/youtube]

As long as there are humans there will be human factor causing incidents.
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/1016 ... -shanghai/

Drain cover problems were known at Shanghai
18 October 2005

The Shanghai International Circuit knew about the problems with the drain cover in Turn 10, which made Montoya to retire in the Chinese Grand Prix on Sunday. Montoya ran over the kerbs when the drain came lose cut his tyre and damaging his McLaren. In June though the same sort of incident happened in a V8-Supercar race.

The Australian V8-Supercars visited the circuit earlier this year in June when driver Mark Winterbottom hit the kerbs and drain. The drain came loss and ripped the bottom of his car in two pieces and even damaged the driver's seat a bit. Fortunately at the time Winterbottom came out of the car unhurt. "It wasn't until the next morning before I realised I was pretty lucky. The car got very damaged though," he said.

In 2004 when the DTM series visited Shanghai for a race through the streets of Shanghai there was the same sort of problem. Worksmen had to weld the manhole covers after an incident with Bernd Mayländer.

Maybe the Chinese organisation will be able to fix the track for next season…

Richard
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Re: Why Monaco and not Nordschleife?

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Hail22 wrote:The kerb isn't a safety device its to prevent cutting corners, also thats poor quality of workmanship which falls under in construction as poor quality control.
I'm at a loss to understand how a loose kerb is different to a loose manhole cover. The cars drive over both of them. Both of them could cause crashes if incorrectly fitted.

Also you've ignored the second incident at Singapore when there was a bolt sticking out a kerb, yes a metal spike sticking up by 50mm or so.

I see Manchild has quoted the Shanghai incident.

I think the idea of cancelling Monaco due to a single incident of a loose manhole cover doesn't add up.

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