McLaren with Honda engines in 2014

[noname]

Furthermore, they'll never be a BETTER engine manufacturer than Mercedes, so WHY?

And with engine rules as they are now, the engine in not, and will not be, real differentiator.

You can spend this money better elsewere.

[kalinka]

If you read this thread from the beginning, I wrote on previous page >

"I hope that Honda could enter the competition in 2014 with McL. It's not impossible to make a good engine in first year (especially that it would be first year for others too )."

So my intention with above example was plainly to point out that you can't really compare those manufacturers and their investment plans (Intel vs. McL ).

I'm putting my vote for Honda+McL for 2014 too. With a bit of remark, that I believe McL are more than ready to develop their independent engine if they want it , but of course neither I see currently a good reason for that. And of course as I mentioned before , it's just an opinion, and no facts.

[feynman]

Mclaren would have to spend at least 100 million to get to the same place they are now. I don't see any reason for Mclaren to build f1 engines, they'll never sell enough 200,000 dollar road cars for the marketing to pay for it. Why blow a hundred mill or so to be in the same place?

Furthermore, they'll never be a BETTER engine manufacturer than Mercedes, so WHY?

RenaultF1 claim their engine program costs them €120million per year. That's with a long frozen engine spec, and all the required infrastructure, process, competences, design and expensive debug (explosions) already in place.
Just to keep ticking over a reasonable F1 engine costs that much, they claw back some of that money from selling customer units ... but McLaren starting from scratch definitely wouldn't come in any less than that number, lots of zeroes, and that's to build an engine arguably weaker than their current supplier.

The Ricardo engines that go into the back of their roadcars, will all have shiny McLaren badges on them, and that is more than satisfactory for the market.
How many extra more roadcars will having an in-house V6 engine in their F1 racecar help them shift? As a rough guess, they'd need something like an additional 7,500 MP4-12C every year just to break even on the proposition, doesn't look sensible.


As to your second point though, I'll disagree. They probably do want to get out from under Mercedes.

Firstly they would prefer to be paid to bolt-in engines, rather than send tens of millions to help a rival team on the grid.
... And second, future Benz high-performance engines will certainly be designed and upgraded for the best needs of the Benz F1 team, customers always come second. McLaren I imagine would much prefer a busy squad of Honda techs diligently optimizing and refining an engine program for their car, rather than taking shipments of zero-input black-box customer engines, the only thing you know for certain is that they are guaranteed not to look quite as good on the dyno as the ones the factory will keep for themselves.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

In all honesty if Mercedes are going to spend the cash, isnt it their right to get the best?

McLaren will be faced with much the same choice as they have today, namely Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes. Ferrari you can rule out for obvious reason, Renault will be a RB works team and it will be up to Red Bull should McLaren opt for this.
I don't think they would allow it as McLaren vetoed Red Bull receiving Mercedes power back in 2009.

As for what the name says on the cam covers of the 12C, enthusiasts will know its not a McLaren engine. Regardless of what people think.

And the more I see of Honda denying and Mclaren asking where the story came from, the more I think this was a fabrication to get the engoine market negotiations kicked off for 2014.....only 2 years away now.

[Pierce89]

Mclaren would have to spend at least 100 million to get to the same place they are now. I don't see any reason for Mclaren to build f1 engines, they'll never sell enough 200,000 dollar road cars for the marketing to pay for it. Why blow a hundred mill or so to be in the same place?

Furthermore, they'll never be a BETTER engine manufacturer than Mercedes, so WHY?

RenaultF1 claim their engine program costs them €120million per year. That's with a long frozen engine spec, and all the required infrastructure, process, competences, design and expensive debug (explosions) already in place.
Just to keep ticking over a reasonable F1 engine costs that much, they claw back some of that money from selling customer units ... but McLaren starting from scratch definitely wouldn't come in any less than that number, lots of zeroes, and that's to build an engine arguably weaker than their current supplier.

The Ricardo engines that go into the back of their roadcars, will all have shiny McLaren badges on them, and that is more than satisfactory for the market.
How many extra more roadcars will having an in-house V6 engine in their F1 racecar help them shift? As a rough guess, they'd need something like an additional 7,500 MP4-12C every year just to break even on the proposition, doesn't look sensible.


As to your second point though, I'll disagree. They probably do want to get out from under Mercedes.

Firstly they would prefer to be paid to bolt-in engines, rather than send tens of millions to help a rival team on the grid.
... And second, future Benz high-performance engines will certainly be designed and upgraded for the best needs of the Benz F1 team, customers always come second. McLaren I imagine would much prefer a busy squad of Honda techs diligently optimizing and refining an engine program for their car, rather than taking shipments of zero-input black-box customer engines, the only thing you know for certain is that they are guaranteed not to look quite as good on the dyno as the ones the factory will keep for themselves.

The Honda thing would be good. I was railing against these people that think Mclaren can come in as a top engine supplier just because they're Mclaren. They don't have the money or engine experience that any competitive(so that excludes Cosworth) manufacturer has. You'll not see Mclaren building F1 engines anytime soon.

[Raptor22]

In all honesty if Mercedes are going to spend the cash, isnt it their right to get the best?

McLaren will be faced with much the same choice as they have today, namely Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes. Ferrari you can rule out for obvious reason, Renault will be a RB works team and it will be up to Red Bull should McLaren opt for this.
I don't think they would allow it as McLaren vetoed Red Bull receiving Mercedes power back in 2009.

As for what the name says on the cam covers of the 12C, enthusiasts will know its not a McLaren engine. Regardless of what people think.

The MP4/12C's engine is collaborative design between McLaren and Riccardo. The production of the block, and heads is also subcontracted to Riccardo who farm out the actual casting work. It is a still a McLAren engine whichever way you spin it.
Riccardo also have Renault, VAG, Mercedes Benz, Ford, and even BMW engines in their 3D modellers because their business is engine design consultancy. All the biug manufacturers use Riccardo for various aspects of their design's including combustion modelling, software, and emissions control. To call the Mclaren engine a Riccardo engine is a huge disservice to McLaren.

The 2014 engine rules will reduce the cost of entry substantially because the engines by design of the rules are less stressed. It is for this reason only that VAG is looking at F1 because even the largest automobile manufacturer does not see it financially viable to take on the liability of current spec F1 engine manufacture. So no McLaren will not produce an engine to current rules, that is obvious.

In 2014, McLaren may have more than the established choices of engines i,e. Renault, Mercedes Benz, Cosworth.
Cosworth have sufficient competance to produce an awesome V6 Turbo and they will be a dark horse.
Toyota and Honda also can produce of the required quality.
BMW, Volkswagen AG and its subdriaries are widely touted as producng the best turbo charge direct injections in the world at the present time so they could also be options if they opt in.

The only viable non Mercedes paths I see for McLaren is to partner with Riccardo on a v6 Turbo,
Partner with Cosworth on a v6Turbo
Reintroduce the McLaren TAG-Porsche through a collaborative effort with VAG
Opt for a re-entering F1 engine manufacturer e.g Honda, Toyota, BMW.

Overlaying McLaren Cars longer term strategy, a McLaren engine seems logical, especially when it is developed to th3 2014 rules.
Ron Dennis has openly stated that his vision for McLaren cars is rival Ferrari. That menas creating an english iconic brand that will last the next 100years. To do that McLaren needs to become completley self sufficient.
Sure selling 10,000 MP4/12c's a year is not going to do it, but he has also stated that McLaren will be introdcing bread and butter sports cars as well. With that I assume he means sports cars in the GBP50,000 region. i.e. cash cows.

The only way I see a McLaren engine on the grid in 2014 is if its designed by McLaren, manufactured by Cosworth or Riccardo

[kalinka]

@Raptor22 :

Thank you for your post. It clears up some of my speculations when I stated that ( based on virtually nothing ) McL indeed has all the know-how and almost everything else to design a new F1 engine.
It's normal that casting work is done by Riccardo. Staying with the example of computer chip desing, there are numerous famous chip designer companies, who doesn't have any chip factory, they are only designing chips. The actual production is done by others. They could do all the other work, which includes testing and tuning and designing all the surrounding electronics.

Still I think the probability for seeing Honda with McL in 2014 is much higher than the McLaren-engine version, and I'll be happy with that. But in long-term it's clear that they're commited to Ferrari route, which involves self-designed engines.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Raptor,

What spin? The engine was designed and built with help from Ricardo engineering. And given that McLaren have no engine facilities build or design, what does that tell you?
If they had it would be a collaboration but this is merely McLaren outsourcing the engine to a 3rd party requesting specific weight, power and dimensions.

And every manufacturer outsources something. This business of it being a wholly McLaren engine is false, for whatever that's worth.
In the end you have to concur that McLaren are not in a postion to make engines. Having followed McLaren since the senna days it isn't a glorious fact I enjoy.
But that's the state of affairs however which way you paint.

And if you think McLaren will have turbo 6s of their own making in 2014, I'd love to know how they are going to afford it.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Yes, McLaren will have an engine all their own making.

But, not yet. They need baby steps, rather than huge leaps in this area. Going with Ricardo was a masterstroke, as they get top notch engineering for half the outlay of developing themselves.

The 50k sportscar is a bit low in my view. McLaren will aim for the 80k+ market gunning for 911 customers. How they will make it profitable depends on things like outsourcing the engine, and gearbox... As they do with the 12C.
I hope they succeed, as I think Ferrari have had it too easy the last 20years and Britain needs a supercar maker the calibre of mclaren.

[kalinka]

I understand your points JET, but then how would you call the entirely Ilmor-made engines situated in McLarens in late 90's ? I'm sure you called it Mercedes like I did it back then, as all the commentators did. If I understand their relations correctly, Mercedes had a (minor back then ) stake in Ilmor, but it wasn't involved in desing or fabrication...

In Mp4-15 we called it "Mercedes-Benz FO110J ". So was it a Mercedes engine ?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

As glorious as those V10s were, they weren't fully mercedes.
Same situation. But as of 2004, mercedes fully owned the company and renamed it MBHPE.

Basically, my point here is McLaren do not have the capability to produce their own engine currently. That one day they may be able to is possible, depending on how the company fares.
The issue is McLaren don't need to build their own engine. They had a hand in the M838T, but hardly a "McLaren" unit. Interestingly the engines origins stretch back to 1998.... From Nissans r390(remember that?). Not only that but it was made using technologies from menard competition technologies.

Unlike mercedes though McLaren cannot go out and buy a ready to go f1 operation without a serious amount of cash...

[kalinka]

I didn't know the origin of that engine, it's interesting :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4-12C

"The car is powered by the M838T 3.8 litre twin-turbo V8 engine, designed and developed by McLaren in partnership with Ricardo.[7] The design of the engine was based on the Nissan VRH35 racing engine used in Le Mans in 1998. However, other than the 93 mm bore, little of that engine remains in the M838T"

So again, they call it everywhere a McLaren engine, as it is. If they manage to develop a succesful F1 engine with Ricardo, that would represent a great marketing value for both. And it would be called a McLaren engine. But I agree that either way, the costs of that adventure are too much now for McL.

[Raptor22]

Ok one more time, in point form.

The engine in the backof the MP4-12C is:
1) McLaren designed
2) McLaren Specced
3) design consultancy of Riccardo for engine mapping and modelling.
4) The blockj and heads are cast at an external foundry subcontracted by Riccardo.
5) the engine is assembled at Woking
6) Pistons I believe are Mahle (who also make pistons for F1 engines btw)

It is a McLaren engine, just like a Ferrari is a Ferrari even though the cachwork is designed by Pinninfarina.

Of any sports car maker, Porsche is the only company to design, produce, build and fabricate their own cars. Porsche engine, mate to a Porsche gearbox.
Even so, electrics is by Rober Bosch AG. Ferrari uses Magnetti Marellie, McLAren uses McLaren TAG electronics.

There are a great many performance cars that utilise components not from its own manufacturer foundries. Brakes are either AP or Brembo in most.
Suspension could be Koni, Bilstein, or Sachs or even in house designed for bespoke applications.

Even Ferrari uses local Italian foundries for their engine blocks. Gearbox casings they do inhouse.

The real cost of engine tuning comes from electronics. Producing a stiff block and cyclinder heads is easily subcontracted. Crank shafts can be subcontracted, ane pistons can be purchased.


Will McLaren have a McLaren in 2014. I don't know, unlikley but not impossile. I have no idea what goes on in Woking. Dismissing the idea on grond of "they lack the ability" is a suitcase statement. It needs unpacking.
Money is a problem but will a 2014 engine cost as much to develop as a current F1 engine? I really doubt it since the current engines are 18,000rpm short stroke monsters.
The 2014 engines will be much lower stressed, and therefore more cost effective to produce. I've not done a costing on one yet but I would place the development costs in the same range as a LMP1 engine. And thats a lot cheaper than an F1 engine...

Can the skills to run a small foundry for F1 casting be purchased on the open market?
YES, any kind of skill can be purchased. There are enough foundries out there with competent engineers dreaming about a job in F1 and for even a modest 20% salary increase I'd jump at the chance

[Pup]

Yes, McLaren will have an engine all their own making.

But, not yet. They need baby steps, rather than huge leaps in this area.

True. They aren't about to sacrifice wins just to have their name plate on the engine block. They'll develop their own, and then see how it stacks up with what is available to them on the market. If it falls short, they'll regroup and try again.

[Raptor22]

with every new engines design there will be a teething troubles. thisis true of all manufacturers. If McLaren go for their own engine, it will be running on the test bench at either the Riccardo test facility or at HQ in Woking by February 2013. Thats more than a year away. The decision to actually go that route only needs to be taken by mid 2012.
they have more than enough time to decide on Honda, Mercedes, or McLaren for engine supply.

Also if building their own engines for road cars becomes part of their strategy ( and I think it is) then they need to get that engine into F1 ASAP. F1 is their marketing platform