F1 simulator with 5g load - a discussion

[Tim.Wright]

Pointing the cockpit so that gravity gives you the acceleration that you want.

Its not perfect, but it requires very little in the way of space.

Tim

[volarchico]

I just think the ability to rotate and translate an entire F1 cockpit along a spinning centrifuge arm at a high enough rate to simulate the actual forces experienced would be at best "difficult".

[Jersey Tom]

The yaw component of things is kind of a big deal as well.

Bottom line, attempting this sort of thing is a waste of time and money IMO. Better spent elsewhere.

[Ogami musashi]

But my guess is for a fighter jet, it only simulates positive G's of various levels, whereas an F1 simulator would need to simulate positive (acceleration), negative (braking), and lateral in TWO directions (cornering)...impossible? Definitely not practical...

As said before G load are simulated by rotating the cockpit into the desired direction; Combined g's are simulated as a vectorial sum of the aforementioned G's load's directions.

The simulations of G's directions is not a problem; the difficulty lies more into the simulator/mechanism interface and that's why i talked about lags; Those kind of simulators are only at the begining but the prospect in fighter pilot world is big because in those times of flying hours restrictions, G's training is essential especially for air superiority squadrons;


for sure many hurdles are in the way of the perfect simulator but it actualy works (nastar in usa, deasdemonia in nl).

The simulator quality is another topic.

[hardingfv32]

So how do you generate the sensation of a long high speed sweeper in a simulator?

Brian

[marcush.]

tbh at 5 gs all your internals will face that load - I´m pretty sure for someone who has driven a Formula 1 car to its limits the simulator is just a gadget and good for evaluating random things or driver acclimatisation to the environment of a f1 weekend ..
I very much doubt guys like Hamilton ,Vettel or Schumacher could gain speed by pounding around in a simulator.These guys can drive a car.The relevance of the simualtor to the real thing is not very high .
Mind you ,even calculations of cosimulations temperature combined with aero is still something of a work in process and not really a normal everyday thing in development and you can be happy to get decent results from a heat soak simulation ....so why on earth should a simulator with its physical restrictions be abale to reproduce the real thing .the teams spend the money because they have it and because they can teach the new drivers all those little things in the car that takes time to get used to and no time avaialable during the weekend -as no testing is allowed.

[Ogami musashi]

So how do you generate the sensation of a long high speed sweeper in a simulator?

Brian

The simulators i'm talking about are centrifuge coupled simulators; The centrifuge creates the centripetal acceleration (the faster you turn, the higher the G's). The cockpit is rotated so that the direction of the acceleration vector is as desired;

This way of doing is actually the exact same way as in nature; The difference between a fighter jet and a F1 in a corner is not the G forces, but the relative position of human body to the acceleration vector; The latter always being toward the center of the turn;

Thus in his principle of work the centrifuge is totally correct; the only problems lie in rate of change of acceleration and communications limits between the simulator and the centrifuge.

[Billzilla]

From my experience driving an f1 simulator, I dont think the missing "G" load is a problem.

I haven't driven an F1 simulator but I otherwise agree - in the real car I notice the g-forces but my attention is more towards the 'feel' of the car, not the coarse g-forces as such.
Same deal with the sims though naturally that fine feedback is a little different.

[jamsbong]

Good discussion guys.
I guess have >1g load simulator is probably too expensive and unnecessary for the sake of accurate simulation.
For training your neck muscles, a gym trainer can probably replicate with some creative exercise routine.
Simulators are quite essential today in F1 whether it be old or new drivers because of the testing ban. I think they can simulate the behaviour of the car with new parts added so that driver can familiarise himself with the changes to the car. Then during practice session, they will only need a few laps to master then changes of the car.

Jet fighters pilots normally experience up and down G loads up to 10+ G. Thats why they will either get a black out or a red out. hehe...
F1 driver gets the max G in the forward directions during braking. Then the left-right G depends of the corners. The least G load is the backward (acceleration).

[Jersey Tom]

Then during practice session, they will only need a few laps to master then changes of the car.

I call BS on this.

Admittedly I don't get to hear the talk up and down the F1 pit lane, but I am pretty certain there are events where teams struggle to get the balance right. That being the case, the cars and setups aren't "mastered"

[jamsbong]

maybe the sim was inaccurate.

[hardingfv32]

Good discussion guys.
I guess have >1g load simulator is probably too expensive and unnecessary for the sake of accurate simulation.

Does simulating >1g loads mean that you have to actually attain >1g loads?

Brian

[Jersey Tom]

maybe the sim was inaccurate.

Exactly. Simulations aren't perfect. They do performance prediction, but that doesn't mean they nail it 100%. You don't just run some sims, throw the car on a 7-post, and arrive at a racetrack perfect. Or at least that would be the exception to the rule.

[Lurk]

Even if they were perfect, you can only run them with some specified weather.
And you cannot predict how the weather will be... Neither how the track will be.


Coming back to state-of-art G-force simulation...
http://www.amst-germany.de/publics/desdemona_pub.htm
http://etctacticalflight.com/atfs-400-p ... hite-paper

ATFS-400 Model 31 PHOENIX Performance Capabilities
• Sustained Gz: +20 Gz max / -8 Gz
• Sustained Gx: + 6 Gx
• Sustained Gy: + 6 Gy
• Gz onset (G/s): 10 -15 G/sec

Total System Bandwidth was increased to 4 Hz

[hardingfv32]

tbh at 5 gs all your internals will face that load - I´m pretty sure for someone who has driven a Formula 1 car to its limits the simulator is just a gadget and good for evaluating random things or driver acclimatisation to the environment of a f1 weekend ..
I very much doubt guys like Hamilton ,Vettel or Schumacher could gain speed by pounding around in a simulator.These guys can drive a car.The relevance of the simualtor to the real thing is not very high .

View the stats of the simulators listed above. They are capable of much more than you imagine.

There is plenty to be learned by the best drivers pounding around in the simulator. The car's performance can be optimized into a condition that the leaves the driver unable to control the car. The simulator allows the driver to modify his skill set to better cope with previously un-drivable conditions. We are trying to modify the drivers preferences to better suit the car.

Brian