FOTA is dead

[xpensive]

I find it beyond discussion that the richest team, as well as the culprit of any possible transgression of anything remotely legal or morally binding, is per definition always the team without a driver carrying a german passport.

For reference, Ferrari from 1996 to 2006, they were completely innocent of everything they were so wrongfully accused of.

[WilliamsF1]

Ferrari did nothing wrong.

I am blaming them for what is to come where in they sign the sweet deal with FOM and FOTA are left picking up less than 50% of the F1 income and CVC carts away the remaining.

[Mandrake]

How invigorating:
Red Bull is the richest.
No, it's Ferrari
No Red Bull!
Ferrari!
RED BULL!
FERRARI!!!
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

But RedBull is also more beautiful than all the others.
NO, Ferrari in scarlet is much more beautiful than all the other teams.
... ^^

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@mandrake and donskar

So, 2 posts and no opinion...

Can we move the thread forward by at least agreeing that FOTA is in disarray due to red bull and Ferrari leaving over resource restriction?
The rest is speculative debate which is what forum is for. Maybe we can hear what both of you actually think RE: the forum topic? Just a thought....

I understand that all the big 4 are in heathrow this morning trying to salvage something behind closed doors. Let's hope there is agreement.

[donskar]

@mandrake and donskar

So, 2 posts and no opinion...

Can we move the thread forward by at least agreeing that FOTA is in disarray due to red bull and Ferrari leaving over resource restriction?
The rest is speculative debate which is what forum is for. Maybe we can hear what both of you actually think RE: the forum topic? Just a thought....

I understand that all the big 4 are in heathrow this morning trying to salvage something behind closed doors. Let's hope there is agreement.

My opinion? FOTA is in disarray because it attempts a practical impossibility: that is, it attempts to make allies and working partners of sworn enemies. F1 is not a sport; it is a business. Winners make lots of money. Losers become hazy memories.

Furthermore, there is a second divide, one that exists between Ferrari and (in differing degrees) all other F1 entrants. Racing is part of Ferrari's DNA or, in marketing speak, an integral element of its brand identity. If Red Bull's target demographic somehow became identified with quilting (to use a ludicrous example), then Red Bull would invest heavily in supporting quilting. For Red Bull, racing (of all sorts) is an excellent marketing tool to reach its target demographic (and there is nothing wrong with that). Ferrari also uses racing as a marekting weapon, but it is much more than that. Only McLaren approaches Ferrari in the ingrained nature of F1 racing in the corporate DNA.

Lastly, no organization can be hopeful for success when it is made up of competitors of vastly differing capabilities. Ferrari, McLaren, RBR, etc do NOT, can NOT, and must NOT concern themselves with the success or failure of the make weight teams like HRT, Marussia, Sauber, Williams et al. Sharks eat minnows or sharks starve. The teams that have the power and the money will work hard to MAINTAIN their advantage in power and money, NOT SHARE that advantage.

[donskar]

If I might add a follow-on opinion. I doubt many will read my previous post, because too many members are not willing to go beyond the knee jerk "yes it is -- no, it's not" style of "discussion" so prevalent here.

[WhiteBlue]

Lastly, no organization can be hopeful for success when it is made up of competitors of vastly differing capabilities. Ferrari, McLaren, RBR, etc do NOT, can NOT, and must NOT concern themselves with the success or failure of the make weight teams like HRT, Marussia, Sauber, Williams et al. Sharks eat minnows or sharks starve. The teams that have the power and the money will work hard to MAINTAIN their advantage in power and money, NOT SHARE that advantage.

To stay within the example from nature you have to give FOTA some credit in terms of superseding the basic evolutionary principles. When human intelligence enters the equation simple laws may find surprising extensions.

In the example of the sharky predator eating all the small fish we have a good example how human nature changes the equation. Men is even more successful in catching all the small fish. But then he finds that the fishing business collapses if he does not protect a certain stock of small fish for breading.

It is the same for FOTA. In order to beat competitors and be victorious you have to make sure that there are some meaningful competitors in the long run. That is why FOTA will look for a stock of teams including Caterham or Marussia. It doesn't hurt if one or two teams are so weak that they get sold every three years to new investors for fresh money. Eventually there will be investors who will get it right and the series will get stronger.

Despite conflicting interests between pure chassis constructors and automotive teams with engine development there will always be a big chunk of the F1 business that requires all teams to shape the policies. This is why I think that FOTA can have a place in F1 if the teams can find the necessary reforms.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Donskar I see what you are saying, but the nature if f1 has changed since 2000.
Apparently in the states, most owners are unaware of Ferrari racing in f1. Hell they don't even know about f1....

The issue here is if spending reaches levels of 5 years ago, most teams would become extinct and only a couple of teams would survive.
If that doesn't happen, then we would see teams being cut adrift, with midfield runners not able to compete and the time difference between everyone expanded to the point of it being a procession.

Either way, it's bad for formula 1, and for the majority of contestants.

Why not have a strategy in place to at least get costs down so that budgets don't become a differentiator?

I'm not accusing red bull of breaking the RRA, but there are questions that are being asked of them and it seems their arrogant nonchalant manner of walking out everytime they're questioned just smacks of BS.
Vettel and webber do a great job promoting the team, but everytime I hear Horner or marko I cringe such is the gamesmanship.
There is more to FOTA and the RRA than gamesmanship.
In these times, why would a team chose to leave FOTA? "not serving our interests" "unable to reach agreement" words used by horner...
And Red bull at the centre of it all.

If they are innocent of any wrong doing and have a genuine concern, I honestly think the impasse could be overcome.
But I suspect they want to make use of their cash advantage to maintain their performance. Nothing wrong with that 5 years ago... But when teams agree to scale back year on year...?



Ferrari aren't angels, but they have lost the most in the RRA era. And if they have concerns which aren't being answered then I would have done exactly as they have to counter the the threat posed by red bulls FOTA withdrawal.
We shall see what happens in the meantime, but I think we are looking at Ferrari and red bull operating outside the RRA for 2012 onwards as FOTA are powerless to punish non members, and the FIA haven't powers either as it's left to FOTA.

Basically the only reason to split from FOTA in this time where negotiations ate due for the renewal of the Concorde agreement would be to spend more money. Either that or I'm losing my marbles...

[WhiteBlue]

Basically the only reason to split from FOTA in this time where negotiations ate due for the renewal of the Concorde agreement would be to spend more money. Either that or I'm losing my marbles...

Marko in Kleine Zeitung: "We are the best in aerodynamics and so the others only wanted to cut back the (development of) aerodynamics." http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/story-180110.html

The quote confirms my view that a conflict of interest regarding the future technical direction is behind Red Bull's withdrawal. The same is true for Ferrari.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Domenicalli did make the point spending 100 million a year on aero only is a bit ridiculous.


I think he makes a valid point. But I also see why red bull fancy spending that money on aero every year...

[WhiteBlue]

On the point of development money being transferred from aerodynamics to drive train developments I'm actually in the Ferrari camp. I believe that the current emphasis on aerodynamics is exaggerated. If it hurts Red Bull I can't help it. It will not change my view of the issue. But if they cut cost on aerodynamics they should do it by adopting the tunnel approach with low drag that the FiA working group proposed.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I actually agree with that WhiteBlue.

In the real world aero has almost no relevance. Ferrari have a point and this really needs sorting out.
If red bull suffer for the greater good of f1, is that a bad thing?
They have 2 titles back to back and head into 2012 favourites, pretty good going really.

So ferrari want limitations on aero, and red bull refused... Impasse.

If the FIA step in it will be in favour of a less aero dependant formula. So really, the writing is on the wall and red bull are probably going to do their own thing until 2014....

[richard_leeds]

I think JET touched on a key point. If FOTA don't sort out extending the RRA then the FIA will impose an extended RRA.

The key players know it is better to collude and reach agreement, because the alternative will be worse.

It's a bit like the Eurozone problem and the US congress super committee. The threat of Armageddon hasn't prompted them to collude. To extend the parallel, we'll see the flamboyant teams having their bunga parties cancelled and an FIA technocrat taking over the budgeting (like Mario Monti).

[n smikle]

I actually agree with that WhiteBlue.

In the real world aero has almost no relevance. Ferrari have a point and this really needs sorting out.
If red bull suffer for the greater good of f1, is that a bad thing?
They have 2 titles back to back and head into 2012 favourites, pretty good going really.

So ferrari want limitations on aero, and red bull refused... Impasse.

If the FIA step in it will be in favour of a less aero dependant formula. So really, the writing is on the wall and red bull are probably going to do their own thing until 2014....

An 18000 rpm 2.4 V8 liter engine has no relevance in the real world either. Neither does 16,000rpm 1.6 liter 800hp turbo V6 engines.

I don't think F1 needs to be relevant. It's the teams's problem how they spend their money. If they reach a point of un-sustainability then they can dial back their respective spendings.

[Mr.S]

Sauber has apparently quit & Torro Rossi will probably quit anyday. That is the latest news.