F1 on a road to nowhere...?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
timbo
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Re: F1 on a road to nowhere...?

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bhallg2k wrote:And I find that pretty emblematic of what's wrong in F1.
Good'ole Bernard??

bhall
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I actually have a begrudging respect for Bernie simply because his march to the money is as relentless as it is merciless. If the teams were as good at their jobs as he is at his, there would be a 12-way fight for the title every year.

I couldn't possibly care less about how much money is involved in F1, because my vote as a fan was taken from me long before I could ever cast it due to the nature of FOM contracts. My problem with the money in F1 is that it seems to have locked all involved into a mindset that looks out for what's best for F1 as a business rather than what's best for F1 as a sport. And I think that's short-sighted, because inevitably, both suffer.

The money is great right now. No one but the teams at the bottom are complaining about a lack of it, and, frankly, it's part of their jobs to complain. But, the sport stinks. It's much more fun to discuss F1 than it is to actually watch it. Call me crazy, but that strikes me a being a little problematic.

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strad
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Nobody is obliged to watch it
I love it...there is always some Johnny Come Lately that says this...Always the same ones that want to re-invent the wheel. :-"
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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machin
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bhallg2k wrote:It wasn't for reasons related to F1 that I didn't watch a race after China this year, but it was precisely because of DRS, that "necessary equalizer," that I didn't miss it at all.
As WhiteBlue touched on:-

You can have:-

1, High Downforce and hence high cornering speeds, but dirty air and processional races

2, Low/No downforce and hence low cornering speeds, but the ability for cars to follow eachother closely

3, High downforce and the ability for cars to follow eachother closely using an artificial aid.

They've tried to tweak the rules for season after season to achieve high downforce without the dirty air without success... The majority of fans wanted to see more overtaking and didn't want to see the cornering speeds drop, so what can you do? The only option was the third one -introduce an artificial aid to promote close racing.

Personally I think the principle worked really well -a few races it needed to be tweaked a bit, but it was (IMO) better than the processional races that would've otherwise occured.
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donskar
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Re: F1 on a road to nowhere...?

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One of the problems of F1 is shown in the editing of the posts in this thread. Seems the mods have had to step in and edit about one out of every three: no passion allowed here or in F1. Xpensive and raptor22 are right on. And comments that we are not obliged to watch . . . just sad. For the younger members, F1 weekends often saw 30+ (yes thirty plus) cars show up. Imagine the diversity. Xpensive, you may have more energy/interest than I do. Perhaps you would list some of the makes and engine manufacturers that participated. IMHO F1 is careening out of control toward a spec car series aimed solely as being a marketing vehicle.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

timbo
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donskar wrote:Perhaps you would list some of the makes and engine manufacturers that participated. IMHO F1 is careening out of control toward a spec car series aimed solely as being a marketing vehicle.
It's a pity there were no internet forums in the DFV days.

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Tozza Mazza
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Being a young F1 fan, I agree with viewpoints here.

I started watching F1 at the age of about 5 (maybe younger), as I remember Mika Hakkinnen and Schumachers battles in 1998/1999/2000, and I first saw a GP live in 2001.

I remember it being exciting, it was fast, dangerous, loud, and at that age, anything which does that was awesome!

I can remember the one thing we shook the most when I first went to a GP, was the NOISE. Screaming V10's!!!!! Amazing noise, a noise I can still remember to this very day.

Being very familiar with the F1 technical regulations, thanks to being involved in designing cars, I agree with the view that technically, the cars are regulated too tightly.

This is both aerodynamically and mechanically.

Aerodynamically restricting the cars, to some extent, is required, for safety grounds. F1 is not about which driver can survive the highest G forces, but is about which driver can drive their car fastest around a track. But limiting it to the extent at which it is at current, is absurd. All F1 cars, effectively, have to fit into boxes, of a pre determined shape, which are pretty much the same shape as a generic F1 car. All the cars end up looking pretty much identical, which is a massive shame. The late 70's and early 80's cars looked the best IMO, and made for some great, up close racing, which was exciting, but dangerous.

The image below shows just how varied each teams car used to look. You can tell the cars apart by their shape, not by their livery!

Image

The frozen engine regulations really p**s me off. You are allowed a 6 year old engine, which you can't do anything to, a 7 speed gearbox, and a limited fixed spec KERS unit. TERRIBLE!

I say, free it up, anyone can have whatever engine they like BUT impose weight restrictions for each engine (say flat I4 bi-turbo has a limit of 35KG, but a V10 screamer a limit of 70KG). I also think KERS and ERS and HERS and any other energy recovery systems, should be unlimited! Why the hell not?! Would allow for innovation and advancement of technology, surely?

With today's technology, and modern safety, surely we could revert back to a more open technical regulation, and make the sport more exciting again?

xpensive
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Great post Toz, good to see that someone younger than us old farts can see the picture!
timbo wrote:
donskar wrote:Perhaps you would list some of the makes and engine manufacturers that participated. IMHO F1 is careening out of control toward a spec car series aimed solely as being a marketing vehicle.
It's a pity there were no internet forums in the DFV days.


Oh the DFV-days, so often quoted, in particular by those who wasn't there. Fact is that there was always engine competition during the first 3.0 period from 66 to the early 80s. At first there was Repco, Ferrari, Maserati, Weslake, BRM, Matra and Honda, then came Alfa Romeo, Matra again and of course the turbos. Now the engines are perfect soul-less clones.

There was only one year, in 1973 when Matra had withdrawn, Ferrari was out for lunch and BRM decided to go off the road, when there was an overwhelming DFV dominance.

But that year still had some of the best racing ever, with a variety of different chassis-concepts unseen before, Tyrrell 006, Lotus 72, McLaren M23, Brabham BT42, Shadow DN1, Tecno PA123 and BRM P160, cars which you could tell apart from a distance.

Even the old CART-series had a better variety than F1 today.
Last edited by xpensive on 14 Dec 2011, 19:23, edited 3 times in total.
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beelsebob
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I honestly don't remember a time while I've watched F1 over the past 20-30 years in which people were not clamouring over how the rules are too restrictive and that there's not enough overtaking. Stop whining, enjoy the show.

wesley123
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As Tozza I am also a pretty young viewer(although I was a viewer).

I am watching f1 since 2001, but I can remember more of races I have never seen, things of years in which I wasnt even born.
Formula 1 has become so dull, and guess what it became duller with every rule change, yet the FIA nor the teams do seem to notice that.

Also safety, it is such an bad excuse for rule changes. I can bet you, an F1 car crashing on top speed in a concrete wall wouldnt kill the driver, not even close, In the worst case the driver might break his leg, wow that is a problem, that at least give the idea that the f1 is really dangerous, one of the characters that described formula 1.

The cars are safe enough, the FIA can easily say; hey guys your car has to be this safe and further you do it yourself, why this is better;
-It allows a better variety of cars
-more technical freedom
-Better racing
-Cheaper cars
-A low budget team can come with something really good, causing them to win races
-An more variety of top teams. For example in 1982 we saw 7 different race winners if i'm correct, and there wasnt one who won more than 1 race.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

beelsebob
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wesley123 wrote:As Tozza I am also a pretty young viewer(although I was a viewer).

I am watching f1 since 2001, but I can remember more of races I have never seen, things of years in which I wasnt even born.
Perhaps you remember them because you've only ever been shown the interesting ones. In 20 years time, we'll have plenty of young'ns claiming that F1 was way better in 2011 because they've seen a replay of Canada.

While we're at it... Canada was good in 2010 too... and 2009... and ... hey, I think I've solved it guys... Why don't we just race around Montreal every week?

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Tozza Mazza
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wesley123 wrote: -An more variety of top teams. For example in 1982 we saw 7 different race winners if i'm correct, and there wasnt one who won more than 1 race.
1982, was a horrible season, the two drivers who were on for the title, both had horrific accident, one resulting in death.

You can never compromise safety, death is bad for the sport, bad for the fans, and bad for the FIA. Look how bad the press made motorsport look after the quick successive deaths of Dan Wheldon and Marco Simoncelli, if that happened in F1, the publicity would be bigger, and worse!

Note that Pironi, Watson, Prost, Lauda and Arnoux had 2 wins each in 1982.

The 2010 season was exciting, but the race action was not so much, although at times it was, so in a way was similar to 1982, but without the tragedy!


What peeves me is a lack of technical freedom these days.

Oh and another thing, why do engines never go BANG anymore? Miss that too!

wesley123
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I do not comprimise safety, I am saying F1 is safe enough, I would even say it is too safe. I am in the opinion they should stop making safety an excuse for everything. And an crash like Dan Wheldon, I am 100% sure that that isnt even possible, the roll bar of an F1 car is strong enough to whitstand such an accident. In 2000 an CART car had an 300kph impact with the roll bar into a concrete wall, there killing the driver, I am sure here it would not.

Apart from that, an sport is described by the possibilty of injury.

As for how I remember it, if I had seen only the fun season of the 80s or not, the fact that I remember and enjoy seasons that where far, far before I was born more than I do now than I am in the opinion that something is seriously wrong.

And Canada was fun, I wasnt really in the opinion of that, I found the race pretty weak. It was wet but when there is a little reain it is already to wet to race there. I an 100% sure the 2008 British grand prix was more wet than this one, yet was still continued. Also over the last 4 years, the racing has drasticly reduced, racing was much much better in 2007 and 2008 for example than the last 3 seasons. For example the wheelbanging of Kubica vs. Massa in Fuji, or Hamilton making the whole field look bad in Monaco 2008.

Compared to that the new rules which where to improve overtaking did not improve overtaking, nor improved the show. The worst part being DRS, it made all the races incredibly dull. I always enjoyed the Brazilian grand prix and other of such races, well even these races became rather dull, and still are the most exiting wones of the season
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

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Mr Alcatraz
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strad wrote:
Nobody is obliged to watch it
I love it...there is always some Johnny Come Lately that says this...Always the same ones that want to re-invent the wheel. :-"
+1
Someone once said "progress is the most overrated concept in the history of western civilization”. I'm not sure who; it may have been Kurt Vonnegut. I don't subscribe to this concept unilaterally but as far as F1 goes these are the good old days, just like every other decade was enjoy it for what it’s worth.
There is plenty of room for improvement in f1 from the top to the bottom, and there always has been.
If you don’t think it is a worthwhile endeavor watch something else.
I did notice that Cosworth hasn't been mentioned yet. I remember when Ferrari passed Cosworth as the most winning engine brand in f1. I believe that was between 2002-4
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ESPImperium
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Re: F1 on a road to nowhere...?

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Cosworth was passed by Ferrari in 2005 i belive, just watched tje 2006 review DVD and 2006 was a ting of beauty i think.

I personally now belive in the 3rd car. Lets get even more drivers in F1, but spice things up with a quali format that is live or die, also get more testing, however 3 in season tests of 3 days, limiting race driver involvement.

Something needs to be done with the RRA and Concorde Aggreement first, then we need to get the ballance in the sport away from aero. Then we need to try and get more time for young guys in the sport.

F1 has many problems, its hard to try and get the ballance right.

The 3rd car would be an amazing inclusion, but id make it that the top 4 teams can have a 3rd car, but only the fastest 2 drivers from them race, meaning that you have to be faster than your team mate, and if you were to take a team of what Renault had in Brazil, and took the FP1 & FP2 times of the drivers, Senna would miss out if you take a 0.6 second improvement in time from FP1 to FP2;

V. PETROV Lotus Renault GP 1:14.856 (FP2)
R. GROSJEAN Lotus Renault GP 1:15.547 (FP1) 1:14.931 (FP2)
B. SENNA Lotus Renault GP 1:15.732 (FP1)

A race against your team mate would mean that things would be something to watch, and also mean that something like this would spice up the championship, meaning that a drivers title could be won by the guy in P1 leading by 24 points could have a poor quali and be knocked out and then the guy who was in P2 could have a flier that weekend and win the race and the championship. It means the fastest driver always wins the title, he has to have a season where he is at 100% all year long.

Id also introduce a thing for the young drivers, in FP1 each team has to feild a young guy and the fastest guy gets 10 young driver points for the team, theese young driver points are then converted into points for the constructors title at the end of the year, the team with the fastest young guy or guys then gets 25 points for instance. It would mean that teams like Toro Rosso could then try and pass Sauber with a fast young driver score, also Force India could pass Lotus Renault this way as well.

Lets spice things up in the sport, make things compeditive in FP1 and Quali, make the weekend a package deal, and im sure viewing figures will increase and F1 will become a much better sport.