Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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JimClarkFan
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Joined: 18 Mar 2012, 23:31

Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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Diff-user wrote:I would assume that trail braking would show up as a near circular arc of g-force indicator so often shown with on-board laps. In this context check out any of the laps posted on youtube, as an exapmle see the video below.... fast forward to the braking point of spoon curve to see what i am talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnXt-gBIhWc

Isn't that trail braking?
I think the brake graphic is simply an on/off, unlike the throttle which measures the amount of application.

Spa is another example, plenty of trail braking, but the brake graphic seems to indicate that brakes are used at 100% always - which I doubt.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZzM-ZVlxvw[/youtube]
Last edited by JimClarkFan on 17 Aug 2013, 23:37, edited 1 time in total.

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SectorOne
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Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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I think there´s more trail-braking then people think. in 99% of the cases where the inside wheel locks up is because the driver is on the brake.
Very rarely is it because the wheel has simply stopped turning due to being completely off the ground.
It doesn´t take much braking force to stop a tire that is just barely in contact with the road.
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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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JimClarkFan wrote:
Diff-user wrote:I would assume that trail braking would show up as a near circular arc of g-force indicator so often shown with on-board laps. In this context check out any of the laps posted on youtube, as an exapmle see the video below.... fast forward to the braking point of spoon curve to see what i am talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnXt-gBIhWc

Isn't that trail braking?
I think the brake graphic is simply an on/off, unlike the throttle which measures the amount of application.

Spa is another example, plenty of trail braking, but the brake graphic seems to indicate that brakes are used at 100% always - which I doubt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZzM-ZVlxvw
He said the g-force indicator, not the brake bar
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Andres125sx
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Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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raymondu999 wrote:My point being; wouldn't you be able to carry much more speed if you had used all of the grip for lateral acceleration; rather than using some of it for braking?
Yes, but then you need to brake a little sooner to turn the wheel at the same time you release the brakes, both completely to make a line as round as possible from the outside to the apex and then to the outside again.

This technique has the advantage of a quicker cornering speed, but if you have good acceleration it´s faster to use the trail braking technique because you can brake later and even when you need to brake a little more because you need to make the line tighter it´s just an instant and you´re on the throttle again.

What´s quicker? It will depend on many factors, but one of the most important is the engine. For example in MotoGP, Moto3 bikes don´t use the trail braking technique because if they slow down too much they loose any advantage of the braking, for them round lines are much better to keep the momentum.

But MotoGP uses trail braking a lot because they aceelerate so fast than it´s worth slowing down a little more if that makes possible braking a little later.

Anyway it will depend on the corner speed, the corner lenght, the grip.... I guess in F1 trail braking is only used in slow corners, as downforce increase with a higher cornering speed, so any corner faster than.... 100mph?? must be taken with the rounder possible line avoiding any trail braking

Hope it makes sense, explaining this in english is a challenge for me #-o

JimClarkFan
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Joined: 18 Mar 2012, 23:31

Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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raymondu999 wrote:
JimClarkFan wrote:
Diff-user wrote:I would assume that trail braking would show up as a near circular arc of g-force indicator so often shown with on-board laps. In this context check out any of the laps posted on youtube, as an exapmle see the video below.... fast forward to the braking point of spoon curve to see what i am talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnXt-gBIhWc

Isn't that trail braking?
I think the brake graphic is simply an on/off, unlike the throttle which measures the amount of application.

Spa is another example, plenty of trail braking, but the brake graphic seems to indicate that brakes are used at 100% always - which I doubt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZzM-ZVlxvw
He said the g-force indicator, not the brake bar
yes, sorry. I seen he mentioned g force and then I found myself going off on one about brakes

olefud
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Joined: 13 Mar 2011, 00:10
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA

Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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Jersey Tom wrote:
Tim.Wright wrote:
Alain Menu wrote:Q: What's the technique in fast corners? Is a front-wheel-drive Super Tourer different to a single-seater?
A: I would say it's not that different
Have to say, I stopped paying attention at this point.
It's a pretty blanket statement he makes for sure, but there's some truth to it. Regardless of platform I'd think you would want some precision on entry of high speed corners... wouldn't be bad to have some power-on understeer (either with FWD or RWD) in that case, rather than smashing the brakes on turn-in for a hairpin when you really want some rotation.
As a generality, trail braking is a function of the ability to accelerate vs. the need to carry speed through the corner. Obviously acceleration is diminished out of a high speed corner.

Trail braking is advantageously combined with a late apex line. With a straighter corner entrance it’s possible to carry speed longer. However, this entails a tighter turn at the late apex, and speed out of the corner is much more important than speed in. On the other hand, late apexing allows earlier acceleration. If the earlier acceleration gets you out of the corner with better speed despite starting from a bit slower speed, it’s the way to go since the higher speed is carried through much of the straight and better speed is carried into the corner prior to the apex. On the other hand, if low power to weight and/or high speed limit acceleration, earlier braking and carving the corner with an earlier apex will carry speed better. A diamond line on a circle track is pretty much the same thing.

The tire tracti0on oval is also important to trail braking, i.e. there’s a traction budget that can be used for braking/acceleration or cornering, not both concurrently.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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I think the drivers just trail brake when they can brake really late and get away with it. Due to slip angles, tyre loading and what not usually the driver can get away with very late braking in slow corners.
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olefud
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Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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n smikle wrote:I think the drivers just trail brake when they can brake really late and get away with it. Due to slip angles, tyre loading and what not usually the driver can get away with very late braking in slow corners.
You’re probably right at the lower level of competition. But fast in, slow out is not the smart way through a corner.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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It's a matter of how close the driver gets to the ideal deceleration into the curve. If he does it close to the limit i think he will be fast out of the corner as well.

behold this masterclass of braking and turning through the esses.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqTJNJkIOlc[/youtube]
Last edited by PlatinumZealot on 21 Aug 2013, 20:14, edited 1 time in total.
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SectorOne
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Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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I´m not following any of that to be honest.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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See the video above. Turning and braking doesn't automatically equate to slow corner exits.
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SectorOne
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Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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n smikle wrote:See the video above. Turning and braking doesn't automatically equate to slow corner exits.
Why would it? your exit speed is dependent on first of all the car but also the geometric line you take through the corner.
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raymondu999
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Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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n smikle wrote:behold this masterclass of braking and turning through essex.
Essex?
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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raymondu999 wrote:
n smikle wrote:behold this masterclass of braking and turning through essex.
Essex?
Corrected. I meant to say esses.
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Andres125sx
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Re: Braking and turning in - Trail Braking

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You guys continue talking about if it´s slower or faster in general.... it will always depend on the corner, it´s not the same a short and tight corner than a longer one, and a fast corner is completely different to the other two.

A corner with some banking is completely different to any other and more prone to trail braking, while on a corner with counter-banking trail braking is bad because you will struggle to accelerate again

Each corner does need its own technique, the main thing is understanding the advantage of each technique, because any techinque has his own advantages, otherwise it simply wouldn´t exist

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