2012 Testing - Barcelona 2: 21-24 Feb

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sirexilon
3
Joined: 13 Jul 2003, 20:14

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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sirexilon wrote:
TheBaverianBasterd wrote:
Shakeman wrote:
It's the balance the car has now that makes a huge difference with the tire wear. This is all due to the downforce being properly distributed. Last year's car simply didn't have the proper balance for most of the season, it seems all of their evaluation in the later part of the season has contributed to a much improved package for this season.
And what makes you think they got it right this year????
To me being able to turn on the tires well in a weather condition that it wont be seen in teh entire season, (meaning so cold) is not a good sign, if anything is more of the same as 2012. If you compare the times to last year, the Cars who made the fastest times (not the quickest of the day) were the ones struggling the entire season, Mercedes, Lotus and Williams for example.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 049&type=1

My only point is, Winter Test is really good for the teams, but NOT AT ALL for the fans. (Not complaining here)
There's NOTHING we can get from it and fly it as REAL truth. We never know the fuel loads, and if the Wing combination was meant for Barcelona lap, or what circuit in the calendar. Hence, we can see a bad lap, but if they were testing some sector that it ca represent some other track and just working on it, then it could mean was a great lap for that test, and we only go through what we see in the clock at the end of the day.

So, Until we are back from the Fly away we can't take anything as real. Hey last year even Ferrari looked fast at some days, how funny that seams after the season now?
Why do I think they have it right this year?

Well in spite of my concerns about the long-term future of the big names on their staff working together, it's clear right now all cylinders are firing. They've put enough pieces in place, and divided the labor in a manner that gets results right now. It's clear the W04 has progressed significantly from the W03. This is before we begin to see meaningful updates up and down. They seem to have full understanding of the 60% wind tunnel. I was very skeptical, but as the saying goes, whereas I was once blind I now see. It might be just testing, however, they are on a mission to prove they can field a real car that competes.

The F2012 did not look good last year on any days by my eyes. I didn't even feel all that great about the W03 this time last year. But the W04 gentlemen looks to be the real deal. Lewis also did something huge for that car, he made sure the sticker placement was proper. I've been told that can have a significant impact on performance, perhaps costing the team half a second per lap in worst case scenarios.

The big heads, have not worked together as long, and many predict a head to head between Ross and Niki by mid season.
What if they showed their pace, while nobody else worried about it?
What if they tires made the difference? Then the tires will overheat in regular season races that are much hotter than winter test.

To me, there are several teams that "might" be very close in times, and maybe, just maybe Red Bull struggled a little bit. but I wouldn't bet on it or put it forward like it is a reality.

So in the end, there aren't any FACTS, just wishful thinking.
Life long F1 fan. Always learning about all the tech around my favorite sport.

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bonjon1979
30
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 17:16

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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And what makes you think they got it right this year????
To me being able to turn on the tires well in a weather condition that it wont be seen in teh entire season, (meaning so cold) is not a good sign, if anything is more of the same as 2012. If you compare the times to last year, the Cars who made the fastest times (not the quickest of the day) were the ones struggling the entire season, Mercedes, Lotus and Williams for example.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 049&type=1

My only point is, Winter Test is really good for the teams, but NOT AT ALL for the fans. (Not complaining here)
There's NOTHING we can get from it and fly it as REAL truth. We never know the fuel loads, and if the Wing combination was meant for Barcelona lap, or what circuit in the calendar. Hence, we can see a bad lap, but if they were testing some sector that it ca represent some other track and just working on it, then it could mean was a great lap for that test, and we only go through what we see in the clock at the end of the day.

So, Until we are back from the Fly away we can't take anything as real. Hey last year even Ferrari looked fast at some days, how funny that seams after the season now?[/quote]

Why do I think they have it right this year?

Well in spite of my concerns about the long-term future of the big names on their staff working together, it's clear right now all cylinders are firing. They've put enough pieces in place, and divided the labor in a manner that gets results right now. It's clear the W04 has progressed significantly from the W03. This is before we begin to see meaningful updates up and down. They seem to have full understanding of the 60% wind tunnel. I was very skeptical, but as the saying goes, whereas I was once blind I now see. It might be just testing, however, they are on a mission to prove they can field a real car that competes.

The F2012 did not look good last year on any days by my eyes. I didn't even feel all that great about the W03 this time last year. But the W04 gentlemen looks to be the real deal. Lewis also did something huge for that car, he made sure the sticker placement was proper. I've been told that can have a significant impact on performance, perhaps costing the team half a second per lap in worst case scenarios.[/quote]


The big heads, have not worked together as long, and many predict a head to head between Ross and Niki by mid season.
What if they showed their pace, while nobody else worried about it?
What if they tires made the difference? Then the tires will overheat in regular season races that are much hotter than winter test.

To me, there are several teams that "might" be very close in times, and maybe, just maybe Red Bull struggled a little bit. but I wouldn't bet on it or put it forward like it is a reality.

So in the end, there aren't any FACTS, just wishful thinking.[/quote]

The fastest lap around that track was set by Brawn in 2009 in the double diffuser/ refuelling age. It was 1’19.954. Whatever way you look at it, 1.20.1 is a very fast time - and that is a fact.

A few commentators have been suggesting that Red Bull had so much fuel on board that they could've done a 1.19.0. I'm sorry, but THAT is wishful thinking. Merc are within a few tenths of the front cars and whether or not they'll win a race is now totally dependent on how their tyre consumption compares to the others.

Mika1
3
Joined: 16 May 2012, 20:17

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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bonjon1979 wrote:And what makes you think they got it right this year????
To me being able to turn on the tires well in a weather condition that it wont be seen in teh entire season, (meaning so cold) is not a good sign, if anything is more of the same as 2012. If you compare the times to last year, the Cars who made the fastest times (not the quickest of the day) were the ones struggling the entire season, Mercedes, Lotus and Williams for example.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 049&type=1

My only point is, Winter Test is really good for the teams, but NOT AT ALL for the fans. (Not complaining here)
There's NOTHING we can get from it and fly it as REAL truth. We never know the fuel loads, and if the Wing combination was meant for Barcelona lap, or what circuit in the calendar. Hence, we can see a bad lap, but if they were testing some sector that it ca represent some other track and just working on it, then it could mean was a great lap for that test, and we only go through what we see in the clock at the end of the day.

So, Until we are back from the Fly away we can't take anything as real. Hey last year even Ferrari looked fast at some days, how funny that seams after the season now?
Lotus struggling the entire season? Did I watch something different last year?

By the way, the relentless debate about laptimes tired me. It's the opinions of the trackside observers (who made the same positive comments about Merc) that counts for me.
The boss follows me on twitter.

aral
26
Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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bonjon1979 wrote: A few commentators have been suggesting that Red Bull had so much fuel on board that they could've done a 1.19.0. I'm sorry, but THAT is wishful thinking. Merc are within a few tenths of the front cars and whether or not they'll win a race is now totally dependent on how their tyre consumption compares to the others.
What is also fact is that Vettel did a 1.22 with 60 kg of fuel, whereas Hamilton,Rosberg and Alonso did their times with 5-6 kg of fuel.

khaliweed
1
Joined: 20 Feb 2013, 12:53

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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gilgen wrote:
bonjon1979 wrote: A few commentators have been suggesting that Red Bull had so much fuel on board that they could've done a 1.19.0. I'm sorry, but THAT is wishful thinking. Merc are within a few tenths of the front cars and whether or not they'll win a race is now totally dependent on how their tyre consumption compares to the others.
What is also fact is that Vettel did a 1.22 with 60 kg of fuel, whereas Hamilton,Rosberg and Alonso did their times with 5-6 kg of fuel.
:roll: :roll: Interesting that you know Vettel was on 60Kg while Ros and Alo were on 6Kg.

bonjon1979
30
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 17:16

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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gilgen wrote:
bonjon1979 wrote: A few commentators have been suggesting that Red Bull had so much fuel on board that they could've done a 1.19.0. I'm sorry, but THAT is wishful thinking. Merc are within a few tenths of the front cars and whether or not they'll win a race is now totally dependent on how their tyre consumption compares to the others.
What is also fact is that Vettel did a 1.22 with 60 kg of fuel, whereas Hamilton,Rosberg and Alonso did their times with 5-6 kg of fuel.
This isn't a fact. Just because the car didn't do laps after a fast time, doesn't mean it couldn't. I'm not sure what time of vettels you're talking about but I assume that you're calculating that he had at least 60 kg because he did 25 laps after posting that time as fuel consumption at barcelona is around 2.4kg per lap. Personally, I can't remember him ever doing such mileage. If you're basing your 60kg on the repeated falsehood that Red Bull never test with less than 60 kg of fuel in the tank then I have to say that this isn't a fact. In previous tests they've been 0.02 (2010), 6 tenths (2011) and 6 tenths (2012) off the fastest time at the final test. None of those Red Bull cars turned out to be over two seconds quicker than the opposition which they would be if you calculated those times as having been set with 60 kg's of fuel on board (-0.4 per ten kilos). These ARE facts.

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NathanOlder
48
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 10:05
Location: Kent

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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gilgen wrote:
bonjon1979 wrote: A few commentators have been suggesting that Red Bull had so much fuel on board that they could've done a 1.19.0. I'm sorry, but THAT is wishful thinking. Merc are within a few tenths of the front cars and whether or not they'll win a race is now totally dependent on how their tyre consumption compares to the others.
What is also fact is that Vettel did a 1.22 with 60 kg of fuel, whereas Hamilton,Rosberg and Alonso did their times with 5-6 kg of fuel.
As far as I know Lewis did a 1.20.8 on the Mediums and did 8 or so laps. So with 8 laps of 2.4kg a lap your looking at a minimum of 20kg of fuel. With the Medium tyre.

As for Red Bulls 60KG running, They do 10 laps , come in change tyres, go back out on a fresh set of rubber, He's now circulating with 35KG of fuel.

People seem to be forgetting that, Red Bull and every other team for that matter (not just RB) Dont refuel the car every lap, so doing runs of 10+ laps is taking out 24KG fuel. So every lap people see Vettel & Webber doing seem to instantly think "wow, he just did those times with 60KG onboard"

Think a little more chaps.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

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aral
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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NathanOlder wrote:
gilgen wrote:
bonjon1979 wrote: A few commentators have been suggesting that Red Bull had so much fuel on board that they could've done a 1.19.0. I'm sorry, but THAT is wishful thinking. Merc are within a few tenths of the front cars and whether or not they'll win a race is now totally dependent on how their tyre consumption compares to the others.
What is also fact is that Vettel did a 1.22 with 60 kg of fuel, whereas Hamilton,Rosberg and Alonso did their times with 5-6 kg of fuel.
As far as I know Lewis did a 1.20.8 on the Mediums and did 8 or so laps. So with 8 laps of 2.4kg a lap your looking at a minimum of 20kg of fuel. With the Medium tyre.

As for Red Bulls 60KG running, They do 10 laps , come in change tyres, go back out on a fresh set of rubber, He's now circulating with 35KG of fuel.

People seem to be forgetting that, Red Bull and every other team for that matter (not just RB) Dont refuel the car every lap, so doing runs of 10+ laps is taking out 24KG fuel. So every lap people see Vettel & Webber doing seem to instantly think "wow, he just did those times with 60KG onboard"

Think a little more chaps.
I was quoting official FIA figures, which gave the times and relevant fuel load when set. If you dispute these, you should maybe contact FIA. :lol: :lol:

bonjon1979
30
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 17:16

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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As far as I know Lewis did a 1.20.8 on the Mediums and did 8 or so laps. So with 8 laps of 2.4kg a lap your looking at a minimum of 20kg of fuel. With the Medium tyre.

As for Red Bulls 60KG running, They do 10 laps , come in change tyres, go back out on a fresh set of rubber, He's now circulating with 35KG of fuel.

People seem to be forgetting that, Red Bull and every other team for that matter (not just RB) Dont refuel the car every lap, so doing runs of 10+ laps is taking out 24KG fuel. So every lap people see Vettel & Webber doing seem to instantly think "wow, he just did those times with 60KG onboard"

Think a little more chaps.[/quote]

I was quoting official FIA figures, which gave the times and relevant fuel load when set. If you dispute these, you should maybe contact FIA. :lol: :lol:[/quote]

Such figures do not exist. Don't know where you're getting your info, but fia certainly aren't informed of fuel load on every run during testing.

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NathanOlder
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Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 10:05
Location: Kent

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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I wasnt aware that the FIA had this info, and if they did, wouldnt be publishing it to the general public. If the Info was available, there would be no speculation, so every cars pace would be clear and simple for everyone to see. But this is not the case.

If it is Gilgen, please share the links.......
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

aral
26
Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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NathanOlder wrote:I wasnt aware that the FIA had this info, and if they did, wouldnt be publishing it to the general public. If the Info was available, there would be no speculation, so every cars pace would be clear and simple for everyone to see. But this is not the case.

If it is Gilgen, please share the links.......
Oh well....if you don't want to believe them, thats your perogative. Some people are able to obtain more info than others. The actual figures stated are as follows...

Rosberg fastest lap 6.3kg
Alonso fastest lap 8.9 kg
Hamilton fastest lap 5.2 kg
Vettel fastest lap 60 kg

Any other figure is pure conjecture.

bonjon1979
30
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 17:16

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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gilgen wrote:
NathanOlder wrote:I wasnt aware that the FIA had this info, and if they did, wouldnt be publishing it to the general public. If the Info was available, there would be no speculation, so every cars pace would be clear and simple for everyone to see. But this is not the case.

If it is Gilgen, please share the links.......
Oh well....if you don't want to believe them, thats your perogative. Some people are able to obtain more info than others. The actual figures stated are as follows...

Rosberg fastest lap 6.3kg
Alonso fastest lap 8.9 kg
Hamilton fastest lap 5.2 kg
Vettel fastest lap 60 kg

Any other figure is pure conjecture.
Ha! So you have access to these and not a single expert covering tests does. Not even the other teams, I think I'll take a monumental pinch of salt please

beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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gilgen wrote:
NathanOlder wrote:I wasnt aware that the FIA had this info, and if they did, wouldnt be publishing it to the general public. If the Info was available, there would be no speculation, so every cars pace would be clear and simple for everyone to see. But this is not the case.

If it is Gilgen, please share the links.......
Oh well....if you don't want to believe them, thats your perogative. Some people are able to obtain more info than others. The actual figures stated are as follows...

Rosberg fastest lap 6.3kg
Alonso fastest lap 8.9 kg
Hamilton fastest lap 5.2 kg
Vettel fastest lap 60 kg

Any other figure is pure conjecture.
1) These figures are pure conjecture too.
2) These figures are easily proved to be false. It takes ~2.4kg of fuel to get around Barcelona, Hamilton's fastest lap was followed up by 5 more laps, so he had at least 14.4kg of fuel on board. That is of course unless Mercedes have found a way to make their engine run on less than 1kg of fuel per lap, in which case they have a pretty significant advantage there in the races.

NewtonMeter
5
Joined: 24 Jun 2010, 21:48
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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gilgen wrote: Oh well....if you don't want to believe them, thats your perogative. Some people are able to obtain more info than others. The actual figures stated are as follows...

Rosberg fastest lap 6.3kg
Alonso fastest lap 8.9 kg
Hamilton fastest lap 5.2 kg
Vettel fastest lap 60 kg

Any other figure is pure conjecture.
My friend, without some sort of evidence to back yourself and those figures up, you're going to get slaughtered in here... You know this.

edit: seems it started already...
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool...

bonjon1979
30
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 17:16

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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beelsebob wrote:
gilgen wrote:
NathanOlder wrote:I wasnt aware that the FIA had this info, and if they did, wouldnt be publishing it to the general public. If the Info was available, there would be no speculation, so every cars pace would be clear and simple for everyone to see. But this is not the case.

If it is Gilgen, please share the links.......
Oh well....if you don't want to believe them, thats your perogative. Some people are able to obtain more info than others. The actual figures stated are as follows...

Rosberg fastest lap 6.3kg
Alonso fastest lap 8.9 kg
Hamilton fastest lap 5.2 kg
Vettel fastest lap 60 kg

Any other figure is pure conjecture.
1) These figures are pure conjecture too.
2) These figures are easily proved to be false. It takes ~2.4kg of fuel to get around Barcelona, Hamilton's fastest lap was followed up by 5 more laps, so he had at least 14.4kg of fuel on board. That is of course unless Mercedes have found a way to make their engine run on less than 1kg of fuel per lap, in which case they have a pretty significant advantage there in the races.
Ha! Well that puts pay to that. Shall we get back to the real world now please.

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