Worst car to win a grand prix

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raymondu999
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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by raymondu999 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:11 pm

@Miguel - it's pretty hard to find a performance that really transcends a car nowadays - the talent level of the field is too close really. In reality; if a car wins a race; it would probably be the quickest (surviving) car
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Miguel
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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by Miguel » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:34 pm

raymondu999 wrote:@Miguel - it's pretty hard to find a performance that really transcends a car nowadays - the talent level of the field is too close really. In reality; if a car wins a race; it would probably be the quickest (surviving) car
I totally agree. IMHO, wacky circumnstances coupled with, let's say, a red flag, are the only possibility to get a really bad car to win a GP. That's how Fisi won. Something funny could have happened also in the 2009 Malaisyan GP, but Button was flawless that day.

Some wins happened due to circumstances: Trulli 2004 was helped by the RSC-Alonso incident plus Montoya-MSC... and the R24 was really strong at Monaco. Maybe even class of the field. Alonso 2003 Hungary had the field somewhat held up by webber, plus that car wasn't shabby at all in the 'ring. Button 2006, best surviving car+tyres... other than PdlR and McLaren, who finished on the podium. Vettel 2008, I believe only the McLaren was a faster car that day (personal belief, of course). Kovi didn't get his chance, and Hamilton started from very far back. The 2009 wins by Hamilton came once the McLaren had improved to 3rd fastest... and still being perhaps the best in traction. I'll forget about many instances and stop boring you right now.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by machin » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:10 pm

kalinka wrote:It's a shame that Damon Hill couldn't win in Hungary in 1997 with Arrows.
It was a moral victory for DH, and for that reason it also gets my vote. To go from barely qualifying at race 1 to showing everyone a clean pair of heals at Hungary including diving up the inside of MS at turn 1 was just amazing. "Drive of a champion" gets used way too often, I think here it was very apt.

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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by CMSMJ1 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:09 pm

I'd agree with the Fisi Jordan race win but as it was wet it was nt quite a normal win eh?

Schumi at Spain 96 - also a --- car...but also in the rain.

The problem we have is that until recently all wins were by the big 4 - McLaren, Ferrari, WIlliams and Benetton/Renault.

So to get the races before that...hmm

1989 Brazil - first race in the Ferrari 640 that had not completed more than 14/15 laps all weekend..and Mansell won it it!

That car was so very far from the best that year and certainly not the best out the box.

So..a dry race and a crappy car. Got to be either the Ferrari 126C that Gilles won at Monaco with or the 412 that Alesi won at Canada...with a side order of the Lotus 43 too.
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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by Pierce89 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:28 am

Websta wrote:Although not a race, the 2005 US Grand Prix winning Ferrari deserves more mention than Alonso's win in Silverstone last season.
Have a grudge? Alonso's win in Silverstone was a monstrous drive regardless of circumstances.
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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by raymondu999 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:52 am

To be fair I think both of them were wins under exceptional circumstances; where circumstances ensured that the Ferraris were the fastest race cars.
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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by banibhusan » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:29 am

If one can consider Alonso's win at silverstone last season, then I guess you have to consider Kimi's victory at Spa in 2009. Even the Ferrari that season was a crappy car to say the least. ;)
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Miguel
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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by Miguel » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:53 am

raymondu999 wrote:To be fair I think both of them were wins under exceptional circumstances; where circumstances ensured that the Ferraris were the fastest race cars.
Yep. When it got dry in silverstone, once the Ferraris were able to warm the tyres, they were faster than the Macs and didn't seem slower than Red Bull. Singapore 2010 is a better drive from Alonso. It's a bit of a shame that would never happen with DRS cars.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by Trocola » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:22 pm

Trulli's victory in Monaco in 2004 on the R24. But maybe the driver was worst than the car...

That same year, Kimi's victory in Spa. That MP4-19 was a very bad car (I know that it was the 19B, but still, Mclaren's season was all but good)


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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by xDama » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:00 am

Have'nt seen anyone post Johnny Herbert - Nurnburgring 1999? :) The Stewart wasn't a complete dog, but it wasn't a winning car either.

My top 3 would be:

Panis - 1996
Fisichella - 2003
Herbert - 1999
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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by Websta » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:18 am

Pierce89 wrote:
Websta wrote:Although not a race, the 2005 US Grand Prix winning Ferrari deserves more mention than Alonso's win in Silverstone last season.
Have a grudge? Alonso's win in Silverstone was a monstrous drive regardless of circumstances.
You misunderstood me - I meant that the 2005 Ferrari was a worse car. I thought that was quite clear given the title of the thread. I thought Alonso's win in Silverstone was great, he drove the wheels off his car.

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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by Miguel » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:28 pm

Surely Alonso's win today can rank here? The car is certainly worse than last year's F150. The Lotus is faster, the Merc certainly in qualy, and maybe even Williams and Sauber are faster in race trim.

My doubt is the fact that the F2012 is good at heating the tyres. Thus, it may actually turn out to be a decent wet weather car. On the dry, McLaren, RB, Williams, Lotus and Perez seemed faster though.

Please note I obviously rank Fisi 2003 and Panis 96 above this win today. However, it may be similar to Herbert's Nurburgring '99.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by scarlet » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:31 pm

Yup. Just goes to show how massive the tyres are in the race this year.

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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by raymondu999 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:37 pm

Miguel wrote:My doubt is the fact that the F2012 is good at heating the tyres. Thus, it may actually turn out to be a decent wet weather car. On the dry, McLaren, RB, Williams, Lotus and Perez seemed faster though.
that's what's so tricky about this topic these days isn't it? On the face of it drives such as Panis Monaco 96, Fisi Brazil 2003, etc seem like they're in sh*teboxes of cars, but who knows? On that day in history, the circumstances and nature could have somehow meant that they were fastest on that day.

Perez today was probably the fastest car+driver combo in the field. But who knows? Maybe there is some characteristic of the Sauber C31 that means it IS a dominant wet-weather car.
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Re: Worst car to win a grand prix

Post by NathanOlder » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:52 pm

I think the only way to settle this would be to see the percentage of the points gained in the win against the points won for the rest of the season for the relative cars.

The 2003 Jordan won 13 points. The win gave them 76% of their points
The 1967 All American Racers won 13 points, The win gave them 69% of their points
The 1996 Ligier won 15 points. The win gave them 66% of their points
The 1999 Stewart won 36 points. The win gave them 27% of their points
The 2008 STR 3 won 39 points. The win gave them 25% of their points

Plus the top 3 in this table apart from the wins, their next best finishes were

Jordan 2003 was a 7th & 8th.
AAR 1967 was a 3rd.
Ligier 1996 was a 5th & three 6th


So It has to go to Jordan in 2003, The only way to beat this is to pretty much win a race , and not finish higher than 9th for the rest of the season (very unlikely) Mercedes, Caterham, MArussia & HRT can still beat this this year though :mrgreen: