Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

[GrizzleBoy]

I think what makes it worse is the 100% shift between the always smiling, cocky guy who would talk about his effortless wins as a "nice sunday drive", to the permafrown he now has, even after just coming off of the best season of his life.

I guess it doesn't really help that people were attributing all his success to a barely legal car system and he's lost his edge the very moment it's gone.

[mnmracer]

I think what makes it worse is the 100% shift between the always smiling, cocky guy who would talk about his effortless wins as a "nice sunday drive", to the permafrown he now has, even after just coming off of the best season of his life.

I guess it doesn't really help that people were attributing all his success to a barely legal car system and he's lost his edge the very moment it's gone.

Only very few sensible people did, though I agree at times Eddie's shirts did make me wonder about his sensibility.

[bhall]

It's not insensible at all to question Vettel's driving absent off-throttle exhaust. His success is intrinsically linked to that system, and he's shown himself to be rather pedestrian when it's not around. That's not to say that he can't overcome it, but he hasn't done that yet.

[mnmracer]

It's not insensible at all to question Vettel's driving absent off-throttle exhaust. His success is intrinsically linked to that system, and he's shown himself to be rather pedestrian when it's not around. That's not to say that he can't overcome it, but he hasn't done that yet.

So he wasn't winning and fighting for the title before OTE? He was just a mediocre driver in a Torro Rosso and just a mediocre driver winning in an RB5? Red Bull must have had great foresight to hire a mediocre unsuccessful driver based on a technology that didn't even exist yet.

Doesn't change the fact though that you'll find very few journalists that attribute Vettel's succes only to the car. The "he only wins because he's in the fastest car" joke is mostly heard on internet forums.

[bhall]

The calling-card of a rabid fanboy is the inability to rationally discuss the object of his/her worship. I never used the words mediocre or unsuccessful; those were assumed simply because I did not place the driver upon a perch and lick his feet.

I'd be happy to discuss Vettel with someone for whom idolatry is not a requirement.

[myurr]

@mnmracer - apparently team insiders aren't very sensible then:

Webber coping better than Vettel in 2012 says engineer

One of Sebastian Vettel’s engineers has admitted the reigning double world champion is currently playing second fiddle to Red Bull teammate Mark Webber.

Cyril Dumont, who works with German Vettel through Red Bull’s works engine supplier Renault, admitted to RMC Sport that the balance of power from one side of the team’s garage to the other has changed.

“Mark tends to be able to get around the problems and adapt,” he said.

“But for Sebastian, each ingredient needs to be at its optimum for him to have full confidence and get the performance out.

“The car has worked well for him in the previous two years, while it is true that at the first two grands prix (of 2012) he has been less comfortable.

“Mark seems to be suffering less,” added Dumont.

http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/04/14/webbe ... aF1.com%29

[mnmracer]

The calling-card of a rabid fanboy is the inability to rationally discuss the object of his/her worship. I never used the words mediocre or unsuccessful; those were assumed simply because I did not place the driver upon a perch and lick his feet.

I'd be happy to discuss Vettel with someone for whom idolatry is not a requirement.

Funny man you are. Most trolls/haters wait a few posts before they start contradicting themselves.

But if in your world "being a pedestrian without it" and "not having shown to overcome it" is somehow not an insult to someone's skills, have fun. Just make sure you sober up before the race starts.

@myurr
Someone that claims Mark tends to be able to get around problems and adapt, ignoring his inability to adapt to the Pirelli tyres for 19 races, or his inability to adapt to modern Formula One starts, doesn't sound very sensible to me, no. I could pick it apart further, but you wouldn't bring up such a poor point if you were actually interested in a real debate, so I'm sorry, but I'm not going to bother.

[Nando]

I think what makes it worse is the 100% shift between the always smiling, cocky guy who would talk about his effortless wins as a "nice sunday drive", to the permafrown he now has, even after just coming off of the best season of his life.

I guess it doesn't really help that people were attributing all his success to a barely legal car system and he's lost his edge the very moment it's gone.

I´ve been saying this since day one when all the people started chanting "vettel is the greatest"

what a load of BS. Who was it that made a comparison of Vettel and Fangio?
I wish i could see his stupid face now.

[myurr]

@myurr
Someone that claims Mark tends to be able to get around problems and adapt, ignoring his inability to adapt to the Pirelli tyres for 19 races, or his inability to adapt to modern Formula One starts, doesn't sound very sensible to me, no. I could pick it apart further, but you wouldn't bring up such a poor point if you were actually interested in a real debate, so I'm sorry, but I'm not going to bother.

Pretty arrogant, but let's take a look at your post.

You can actually trace Vettel's ascendency over Webber back to the introduction of off throttle blowing. Until it was fully introduced half way through the 2010 season Webber was holding his own against Vettel and even had a bit of a run where he got the upper hand. If you look closely at the two drivers styles then you'd know that the off throttle blowing actually complements Vettel's driving style and gives a bigger gain than with Webber's. This system has basically been giving Vettel a huge helping hand over the last year and a half.

Last year Pirelli entered the sport and introduced tyres that reward the way Vettel and Button drive. They don't respond well to drivers attacking the circuit, that just overheats the tyres and reduces their life. This stops drivers like Hamilton and Webber from driving the way they would like to. So yeah the best drivers should adapt, but this doesn't mean that certain drivers aren't benefitting from the tyres. This effect seems reduced this year but is still present.

Webber isn't the greatest driver on the grid, completely agree with you. He hasn't adapted particularly well to the Pirelli tyres, didn't get the most out of the off throttle blowing, and still for some stupid reason struggles with the starts (which is weird as they're mostly procedure). But despite all that he's still getting more out of the car than Vettel. You may think Vettel is the best thing since sliced bread but it's clear he is under performing this year. He's down 3 to 0 in qualifying, his mental state is fragile, he's making mistakes, he's frustrated and angry, he's only 6th in the championship, and he's just had his worst result in qualifying since 2009. He's stabbing around with different exhaust configurations because he's uncomfortable in the car and, in my view, is struggling to reconcile the fact that Webber is performing better than him.

So care to discuss why you think that the statement "Vettel only performs at his peak when the car suits him and everything is as it should be" is incorrect. Perhaps you could point out all those performances where Vettel has dragged a poor car to the front of the field, or adapted to obvious car problems where the balance has shifted and is no longer to his liking. Would be great to have a proper debate but I fear you'll just resort to further name calling, arrogant dismissal, and presentation of your opinion as unquestionable fact.

[PlatinumZealot]

The calling-card of a rabid fanboy is the inability to rationally discuss the object of his/her worship. I never used the words mediocre or unsuccessful; those were assumed simply because I did not place the driver upon a perch and lick his feet.

I'd be happy to discuss Vettel with someone for whom idolatry is not a requirement.

Funny man you are. Most trolls/haters wait a few posts before they start contradicting themselves.

But if in your world "being a pedestrian without it" and "not having shown to overcome it" is somehow not an insult to someone's skills, have fun. Just make sure you sober up before the race starts.

@myurr
Someone that claims Mark tends to be able to get around problems and adapt, ignoring his inability to adapt to the Pirelli tyres for 19 races, or his inability to adapt to modern Formula One starts, doesn't sound very sensible to me, no. I could pick it apart further, but you wouldn't bring up such a poor point if you were actually interested in a real debate, so I'm sorry, but I'm not going to bother.

Mark is an ole dog... he takes long to learn new tricks; especially computer controlled "nintendo" tricks like Off throttle EBD.

Anyway I don't think Vettel's problem is adaptation. He already adapted to the Pirellis. It is well documented that the man personally visited the Pirelli factory to study up these tyres. I think Vettels problem now is that

1. On low fuel he can't drive his new car on the limit because it has a loose rear.

2. His car is not the fastest anymore. The top 3 cars are very closely matched.

3. His teammate somehow can drive the car better on low fuel.

4. He is feeling pressure to show that he is the fastest qualifier in F1 and he can't back it up.

[bhall]

Funny man you are. Most trolls/haters wait a few posts before they start contradicting themselves.

But if in your world "being a pedestrian without it" and "not having shown to overcome it" is somehow not an insult to someone's skills, have fun. Just make sure you sober up before the race starts.

It's not insensible at all to question Vettel's driving absent off-throttle exhaust. His success is intrinsically linked to that system, and he's shown himself to be rather pedestrian when it's not around. That's not to say that he can't overcome it, but he hasn't done that yet.

For the woefully uninformed, I'll provide this:

Pedestrian; adjective: Lacking inspiration or excitement; dull

Now, can someone please demonstrate how my statement is in any way insulting? Anyone? Or am I merely confronted with a situation in which anything less than gently suckling on the extended index finger of our downtrodden champion is considered an affront to sanity?

The FACT of the matter is that Sebastian Vettel's two World Championships - his success - were won with the benefit of off-throttle exhaust-blown diffusers. This cannot be disputed. Ever. For any reason.

At the 2011 British Grand Prix - an anomaly for the season as off-throttle exhaust blowing was prohibited - Sebastien Vettel was outclassed by his teammate in both qualifying and, yes, the race. Vettel's second-place showing ahead of his teammate was purely the result of said teammate being told to, "maintain the gap."

Thus far this season, Vettel is a shell of his former self. He is being handily beaten by his teammate by virtually every metric. Even those who rank among the most obstinate people in the world cannot deny this.

Red Bull internally are technically putting the bench mark on the fastest driver. This is obviously Mark Webber at the moment. No wishful thinking can change results. Seb needs to reflect on this and make the necessary adjustments. I'm pretty sure he can do it.

No one has said this situation is permanent. His results in 2009 show that he is, in fact, capable of performing at a very high level, even without the benefit of an off-throttle exhaust-blown diffuser. He just hasn't done it yet.

For those who don't experience the pitter-patter of butterfly wings in their stomach at the mere sight of the boy who would be king, all of this was reflected in my initial statement. It was both honest and objective. It did not, however, cater to the fragile hero-worship that's utterly disgusting and makes a mockery of good sense.

This will be the last time I explain myself in this way. I suggest that those who cannot handle an objective discussion based upon logic and reason abstain from the discussion until they at least experience puberty.

[bhall]

Ha! Great minds think alike. And at about the same time it seems.

[PlatinumZealot]

I will lay off this for now. It's making Vettel look too important. I feel like a "hater." Feels sorta guuud.

[raymondu999]

Who was it that made a comparison of Vettel and Fangio?
I wish i could see his stupid face now.

Stirling Moss and Muzza Walker

[Maelstrom]

Some people were also going on about how he'll be the one to break Schumacher's record. I doubt that will ever happen.