Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

[Nando]

Some people were also going on about how he'll be the one to break Schumacher's record. I doubt that will ever happen.

Depends on the cars he get.

[Maelstrom]

Some people were also going on about how he'll be the one to break Schumacher's record. I doubt that will ever happen.

Depends on the cars he get.

Yes... But six more WDC titles? Highly unlikely. He's a good driver but Michael was better.

[Nando]

Yes... But six more WDC titles? Highly unlikely. He's a good driver but Michael was better.

Again, it all depends on the cars. Yes it´s unlikely but not unrealistic.
However i think if that were to happen, it would not be Vettel who breaks it.

I´m sure no team in the near future will dominate like Ferrari did but if you are smart and switch teams at the right moment then you can very well pick up 7 titles in a career.

example would be Vettel moving to Mclaren after taking his title.
Theoretically speaking not considering contracts etc.

[raymondu999]

The field today is so good and so close in terms of cars and talent (relatively speaking) that anyone would be hard pressed to get 5 titles - let alone 7 or 8.

[ringo]

I think thats a fairly accurate analysis, and I could consider myself to be a Hamilton fan. Could you elaborate on the "grounding" part? I'm not really sure what you mean by that.

Also, I think at this point, having him spend a season in, say, a Force India, would change little. He's had the experience of fighting for a points finish in the first half of 2009 and that did not seem to have changed much.

I would also like to add that I think there is a point to be made in that he does not seem to have developed the same level of maturity as even Vettel, which I agree, is in part a product of the way he was brought into F1.

Of course, there is no correlation between age and maturity.

At the moment i think Vettel is the most immature champion ever in F1. He still behaves like a kid, and he's disrespectful when things dont go his way.
Hamilton doesn't have a mean streak with other drivers. In fact he's quite respectful to all drivers, even Felipe Massa.
Vettel's middle finger, and insults don't come across as mature to me.

Schumacher: age 27 when he wanted to brawl with Coulthard.
Senna: age 31 when he started a fight with Irvine.
Alonso: age 29 when he 'got upset' with Petrov.
Villeneuve: late 20's when he 'was not a robot'.

I can go on for a while, but you should get the point. Don't be delusional and confuse facts with fiction there.

Why no mention of Hamilton here? Unless you are saying Hamilton is more mature than all of these guys i suppose.
You say i'm delusional, delusional with what exactly? I think you're the delusional one. The discussion was about developing the same level as maturity; as quoted by Lycoming, agree?
You went from Vettel being very mature, to "ok he's not mature, but they all aren't", so he gets a pass in your eyes. Which is a double take really.
Yet you fail to mention a rude moment between reigning champ 2009 Hamilton, the subject of the comparison, and another driver.
Vettel isn't a good ambassador as double champ. Anyone can see that. I am referring to that aspect. He's not magnanimous, he is petulant and grumpy when he's out of the RBR bubble, too many examples, no matter how you want to sully the others.

Hamilton, though being most wanted by the FIA on track, simply hasn't flipped off or disrespected another driver's team or job. As much as he's seen as cocky, i don't recal him calling his teammate a psycho or a cucumber. Vettel is as dirty mouthed as his cars' names.
Can you counter that now with facts without any delusions?

[ringo]

As for Vettel adapting to the rules. I think he's still one of the best drivers out there. He doesn't have the six tenths like Alonso, but the Chinese GP showed that the guy still can go fast in clean air on an offset strategy.

His early on throttle style is greatly neutered by the lack of floor blowing.
Newey will have something in the works to crutch him up. in fact i still think redbull are a championship threat. They only need to make the right exhuast and get a little more top speed.

[GrizzleBoy]

As for Vettel adapting to the rules. I think he's still one of the best drivers out there. He doesn't have the six tenths like Alonso, but the Chinese GP showed that the guy still can go fast in clean air on an offset strategy.

His early on throttle style is greatly neutered by the lack of floor blowing.
Newey will have something in the works to crutch him up. in fact i still think redbull are a championship threat. They only need to make the right exhuast and get a little more top speed.

I honestly think the longer they spend messing with exhausts, the longer they will spend not catching up.

If people are going to respect Newey as a car designer, they should have some faith that he can do something to better the car other than exhaust tweaking.

Otherwise he's being made to look like a one trick pony.

[raymondu999]

Hamilton, though being most wanted by the FIA on track, simply hasn't flipped off or disrespected another driver's team or job.

To be fair, he called Massa and Maldonado "absolutely frickin ridiculously stupid"

As for Vettel adapting to the rules. I think he's still one of the best drivers out there.

agreed. He's still top 3 on the grid. Top 4 at worst (discounting off days. All drivers have off days where they just underperform as hell. Even the top folks.

He doesn't have the six tenths like Alonso

those 6 tenths were in terms of car development though, he didn't say it as in terms of being 6 tenths quicker as a driver.

the Chinese GP showed that the guy still can go fast in clean air on an offset strategy.

I think while Vettel is far from being rhe best overtaker, he does have a knack of defense against a quicker car, and he is undoubtedly still quick in clean air in race pace on these tyres, without burnng them too much. Spain and Monaco last year showed that, and Brundle also said that Vettel seems to have a great way of reading a chasing car's body language. Most of his contra strategies have, as such, been based around less stops, rather than more stops.

His early on throttle style is greatly neutered by the lack of floor blowing.

he often likes to underspeed on the way into a corner at times. I think you also spotted it some time back. He sometimes brakes early so he can go on the throttle earlier. Maybe this doesn't work now, as he'll get understeer when he's on the throttle, and so wouldn't make the apex or would run out of road.

in fact i still think redbull are a championship threat. They only need to make the right exhuast and get a little more top speed.

Aye. People forget he was some 40-odd points behind in 2010 with 6 races left. To be honest, writing off any McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull or Lotus driver, sans Grosjean or Massa, would be premature.

[raymondu999]

As for Vettel adapting to the rules. I think he's still one of the best drivers out there. He doesn't have the six tenths like Alonso, but the Chinese GP showed that the guy still can go fast in clean air on an offset strategy.

His early on throttle style is greatly neutered by the lack of floor blowing.
Newey will have something in the works to crutch him up. in fact i still think redbull are a championship threat. They only need to make the right exhuast and get a little more top speed.

I honestly think the longer they spend messing with exhausts, the longer they will spend not catching up.

If people are going to respect Newey as a car designer, they should have some faith that he can do something to better the car other than exhaust tweaking.

Otherwise he's being made to look like a one trick pony.

To be fair Newey's often been a single trick pony. Active suspension, EBD recently... The cars have been fundamentally good, but his extra "gimmick" has been the straw that broke the camel's back.

[mnmracer]

At the moment i think Vettel is the most immature champion ever in F1. He still behaves like a kid, and he's disrespectful when things dont go his way.
Hamilton doesn't have a mean streak with other drivers. In fact he's quite respectful to all drivers, even Felipe Massa.
Vettel's middle finger, and insults don't come across as mature to me.

Schumacher: age 27 when he wanted to brawl with Coulthard.
Senna: age 31 when he started a fight with Irvine.
Alonso: age 29 when he 'got upset' with Petrov.
Villeneuve: late 20's when he 'was not a robot'.

I can go on for a while, but you should get the point. Don't be delusional and confuse facts with fiction there.

Why no mention of Hamilton here? Unless you are saying Hamilton is more mature than all of these guys i suppose.
You say i'm delusional, delusional with what exactly? I think you're the delusional one. The discussion was about developing the same level as maturity; as quoted by Lycoming, agree?
You went from Vettel being very mature, to "ok he's not mature, but they all aren't", so he gets a pass in your eyes. Which is a double take really.
Yet you fail to mention a rude moment between reigning champ 2009 Hamilton, the subject of the comparison, and another driver.
Vettel isn't a good ambassador as double champ. Anyone can see that. I am referring to that aspect. He's not magnanimous, he is petulant and grumpy when he's out of the RBR bubble, too many examples, no matter how you want to sully the others.

Hamilton, though being most wanted by the FIA on track, simply hasn't flipped off or disrespected another driver's team or job. As much as he's seen as cocky, i don't recal him calling his teammate a psycho or a cucumber. Vettel is as dirty mouthed as his cars' names.
Can you counter that now with facts without any delusions?

"At the moment i think Vettel is the most immature champion ever in F1."
Either you've been watching Formula One since 2010 or you apply a double standard. Calling names, flipping birds, being grumpy. Hell, look at your precious Hamilton in Australia to see grumpy. The fact you apply this only to Vettel just shows the ridiculousness of your statement.

[GrizzleBoy]

The only reason people are commenting on Vettels grumpiness is because for the last two years, he has been painted as that lovely, chirpy, happy lad who could do no wrong inside or outside of the car, regardless of his antics when things dont go his way before he was so successful.

It's just so easy to see the literal U-turn in his behaviour on the whole since the very first time he realised he was going to have to work harder this year, that it makes it hard not to comment on it.

[myurr]

"At the moment i think Vettel is the most immature champion ever in F1."
Either you've been watching Formula One since 2010 or you apply a double standard. Calling names, flipping birds, being grumpy. Hell, look at your precious Hamilton in Australia to see grumpy. The fact you apply this only to Vettel just shows the ridiculousness of your statement.

Being quiet and looking a bit down when you've just been upstaged by your team mate is very different to flipping out inside the car, racing round the track on three wheels just so you can wave your finger at another driver. Remove the rose tinted spectacles and you'd see that what GrizzleBoy is saying is true.

Red Bull and Vettel have been trying to turn Sebastian into a brand, hence the stupid catch phrases, waving finger, favouritism, instant siding with him after Turkey 2010, etc. They're trying to build the next Schumacher and have created an entire public persona for him. Heck they've even encouraged the "baby Schumacher" comparisons.

Reality doesn't match up with that construct and there is nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious.

[mnmracer]

"At the moment i think Vettel is the most immature champion ever in F1."
Either you've been watching Formula One since 2010 or you apply a double standard. Calling names, flipping birds, being grumpy. Hell, look at your precious Hamilton in Australia to see grumpy. The fact you apply this only to Vettel just shows the ridiculousness of your statement.

Being quiet and looking a bit down when you've just been upstaged by your team mate is very different to flipping out inside the car, racing round the track on three wheels just so you can wave your finger at another driver. Remove the rose tinted spectacles and you'd see that what GrizzleBoy is saying is true.

Red Bull and Vettel have been trying to turn Sebastian into a brand, hence the stupid catch phrases, waving finger, favouritism, instant siding with him after Turkey 2010, etc. They're trying to build the next Schumacher and have created an entire public persona for him. Heck they've even encouraged the "baby Schumacher" comparisons.

Reality doesn't match up with that construct and there is nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious.

AGAIN, you're avoiding the point. I give you an example of Hamilton being grumpy. YOU attack Vettel AND ONLY VETTEL for behavior not uncommon among competitive Formula One champions.

[Nando]

The field today is so good and so close in terms of cars and talent (relatively speaking) that anyone would be hard pressed to get 5 titles - let alone 7 or 8.

Really?

Red Bull has dominated the last two years and arguably BrawnGP/RBR dominated 2009.

It´s not up to the drivers to decide if someone is going to win more titles then Schumi.
It´s up to the manufacturers to build cars that are superior to the other cars.
Like Ferrari-era or i guess you can call it a small Red Bull-era.

It´s very unlikely to happen in the near future but history, even recent history says that this is still very much a possibility.

Take Vettel, 2 titles already in the bag.
He´s 24 years old only.

Senna took his first title at 28 years old i believe.

So you could say that Vettel is in a pretty good zone for getting more titles in his career.

Again, it´s all about the cars. Who´s driving it won´t really matter as the best teammate will win the title.

[GrizzleBoy]

"At the moment i think Vettel is the most immature champion ever in F1."
Either you've been watching Formula One since 2010 or you apply a double standard. Calling names, flipping birds, being grumpy. Hell, look at your precious Hamilton in Australia to see grumpy. The fact you apply this only to Vettel just shows the ridiculousness of your statement.

Being quiet and looking a bit down when you've just been upstaged by your team mate is very different to flipping out inside the car, racing round the track on three wheels just so you can wave your finger at another driver. Remove the rose tinted spectacles and you'd see that what GrizzleBoy is saying is true.

Red Bull and Vettel have been trying to turn Sebastian into a brand, hence the stupid catch phrases, waving finger, favouritism, instant siding with him after Turkey 2010, etc. They're trying to build the next Schumacher and have created an entire public persona for him. Heck they've even encouraged the "baby Schumacher" comparisons.

Reality doesn't match up with that construct and there is nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious.

AGAIN, you're avoiding the point. I give you an example of Hamilton being grumpy. YOU attack Vettel AND ONLY VETTEL for behavior not uncommon among competitive Formula One champions.

I have personally never seen any driver who literally just won a world championship for the second time in a row instantly turn to permanent sulk mode since the end of testing because their car is not immediately winning them races.

It's sad that you're using the "Yeah but Hamilton was grumpy too that time, so why are you commenting on Vettel being grumpy?" thing as if to say our points are invalid.

If it was as simple as that, noone would have given a flying donkey that Hamilton started beating up on himself during the middle of 2011 and it wouldn't have gotten any media attention.

What makes it worse for Vettels case, is the fact that he has JUST become a back to back world champion and was for the past two years, viewed as a person who couldn't melt butter in their mouth if they jumped into the sun.

Yet he has already tarnished his own reputation within two races simply because he is not in an automatically winning/barely legal car anymore, has shown his true side as opposed to the bubble gum child image and people are picking up on it.