Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

[Lycoming]

To be fair, vettel had several unfortunate mechanical retirements in 2010 that Webber did not have. Certainly the gap between vettel and webber was much closer back then, but Vettel was still solidly ahead on pure pace more often.

[myurr]

To be fair, vettel had several unfortunate mechanical retirements in 2010 that Webber did not have. Certainly the gap between vettel and webber was much closer back then, but Vettel was still solidly ahead on pure pace more often.

From the European GP onwards I don't disagree. In fact if you look at qualifying up till then it was pretty even between him and Webber, but from there on in he started to dominate with only a couple of hiccups. Remember Webber's back to back victories in Spain and Monaco? He was on top of the world at that point and looked like the better Red Bull driver. But then Vettel upped his relative pace - the reported rumour ever since was that Red Bull came up with new engine maps for Vettel that increased the off throttle blowing thus eliminating Webber's driving style advantage.

It was from there on in until the FIA banned off throttle blowing that Vettel held a large advantage over the field. We're only two races in but he's twice qualified in sixth place since that ban having previously qualified in the top 2 all of last season with one exception where he qualified third. He's also been beaten twice by his team mate this year in qualifying despite last year having dominated him.

Vettel is a very talented driver but in my mind he's more a Jenson Button who can get the most out of a great car, but I really don't think we've seen him take victories or pole positions that he shouldn't have been able to take in the same way we have with Alonso and Hamilton.

[Maelstrom]

I suppose it is upto Vettel now to prove Alonso wrong. He doesn't have the best car this year. If he can still win the WDC then he is as good or better. Or else Alonso is right. Time will tell.

[raymondu999]

I don't think Alonso is saying "he can't win in a less-than-best car." Alonso is saying "he hasn't won in a less-than-best car."

I'd personally argue Monza 08 wasn't really won in the best car though. It wasn't a dog that race - maybe even 2nd or 3rd quickest - but I don't think it was the quickest packge.

[Pierce89]

Maybe it's just me but I feel people give the Torro Rosso years more credit than they deserve.

Outside of the win @ Monza 2008, & passing Hamilton (almost depriving him of a championship) in Brazil the same year, both rain races..., I can't say I saw (remember?) any brilliant drives out of Vettel that year. I mention the rain because while a significant amount of luck is necessary, he does stand out for doing GREAT in two rain races that year with a (IMO) crap car.

At the same time, I've lost no respect for Vettel for taking a fast car and squeezing every mph of speed out of it in damn near every session (2011), particularly when requested (e.g. pull out of the DRS zone).

Regards,
Kurt

The STR was far from a crap car in 2008.

[Caito]

The truth is that it's impossible to fairly compare two drivers in F1. They're all really good to basic standards. The problem is you can't put em in the same car and compare because one car/track will suit one driver better than the other.

Vettel won with the best car two championships. Last year he made almost no mistakes, credit must be given to that. Grosjean has been given a good car and he managed to race less than 10 laps in two races.

Alonso's last race was 68.5% luck. Perez proved that arriving second.

Toro Rosso was crap and Vettel won, is he the best? No, he got lucky too.


Time will tell which driver is better. But time will never tell which driver has the fastest single-lap/whatever speed. Time will tell which driver managed things better, not only races but their career as well(figure Montoya, he might be fast but he couldnt' manage the f1).

We clearly know that all these drivers can win championship if the car is given. So,how could we compare them better? Putting them as teammates is not enough. People are saying Hamilton is faster than Button. But Button get the better results because he suits the tire/whatever better.


With Alonso's argument then Schumacher must suck. He always won championships with the best car, or barely legal, or whatever which we shall not discuss in this thread.


If a driver takes the best of a good car, but can't manage a worse car. Is he better or worse than a driver who drives regularly on the best car, but takes the best out of a regular car?


All in all, what I'm trying to say is that trying to say which driver is better is not possible. There are cars involved, there is luck involved, there are a lot of people involved apart from the drivers. We can only put all the good things and bad things a driver can do and that's basically it. All other discussion will probably be personal opinion and lead to nothing.

[raymondu999]

Great stuff Caito. Worded beautifully.

[Maelstrom]

I must also say that after driving a car for two years that was comfortably ahead of the pack, driving a car that isn't quite as good must take a lot of adjustment. The car also probably doesn't suit him as well but he hasn't done too shabbily. Podium on the first race and if it wasn't for the accident he would probably have finished in the top 5 in the second.

Vettel had got so used to being on pole in 2011 and then driving away setting the pace in front and controlling the race that this must be a hugely frustrating experience for him. He's having to fight through cars to get ahead. To even get to the front two McLarens he's having to go through 2-3 cars. It will take him some time to get into his groove.

But its only been two races. Like I said... Time will tell what stuff Vettel is made of.

That said I still believe Alonso is a cut above him. I can't see Vettel in that Ferrari doing as well as him. But maybe i'm wrong.

[Nando]

Vettel is a great driver but i would not rank him as high as Alonso or Hamilton.

For one, he did not really set the world on fire before F1.
Won Formula BMW and came second in F3 series as his best performances.

Hamilton has won pretty much every championship he´s ever participated in. If not the first year he took the title in the year after. and with dominant fashion not seen before.

Alonso has won numerous titles before entering F1.

-

What also goes for Hamilton in all of this is what he did in his rookie year against a 2-time world champion.
I mean i don´t think a lot of people really realize how good he did in hiss first two years.

He beats what i think we all consider the most complete driver in F1. And not only that, he only finishes one point behind Kimi who took the title.

Now for a rookie this is nothing short of insane. If we compare that to Vettel´s first time not in F1 but in a car capable of winning races regularly it looks a bit different.

2010 he made mistakes, 2011 he did none. 2012 he´s already made plenty of mistakes. And that was being a non-rookie versus a rookie.

Maybe he just needs to mature but i still can´t see him next to the two above. I see him as a "Button-type" of driver.

More then qualified for Formula 1. Is a very good driver capable of winning championships assuming the car can etc.

But seeing him do miraculous drives and having the creative mind of Hamilton or even putting his car of a part of the grid where it does not belong.

Like Alonso at Spain last year.

[LionKing]

Vettel wasn't originally that spectacular with the blown diffuser. If you remember the first few races on 2010 Webber was matching him and beating him - his driving style of taking a late apex and getting back on the throttle was helping to get the most from the EBD. But then Red Bull brought in the off throttle blowing and the car moved towards suiting Vettel's driving style by taking away the natural benefit that Webber had and making Vettel's style the one that got the most from the car. I'm sure there are additional subtleties but that's my understanding.

Actually Vettel was comfortably beating Webber from beginning in 2010. Vettel would have won the first three races if it weren't for the realiability issues.

Ironically Vettel is the only one among them that has won a race with a car that was 6th in WDC (which Vettel brought in 35 of 39 points). Hamilton has always driven one of the top two cars in his career apart from 2009 when the McLaren car was 3rd in the WDC. His two wins that year came when they turned the McLaren around and made a very good car in later stages of the season.

Alonso has a vested interest in saying so because he could not beat Hamilton in his rookie year.

[Nando]

The Monza race wasn´t as glamorous as people like to think.
The universe aligned that day for Vettel.
Just like his 2010 title that he not once during the whole season led.


Vettel had 3 retirements in 2010. Webber had 2.

[GrizzleBoy]

The Monza race wasn´t as glamorous as people like to think.
The universe aligned that day for Vettel.

I agree.

Bad strategy in an on-off rainy qualifying kept Hamilton back in 15th place in qualifying.

The wrong strategy in the race left him going backwards from working his way up to second from fifteenth-, down to seventh.

It was another Malaysia 2012 where the correct strategy was the real decider.

If it was a dry race and all that was left to decide who gets pole/wins was who could just drive their car, then the Monza 2008 win definately would have had more significance, but as it turns out, other peoples mistakes were a larger factor for him winning than his ability to beat them in a race.

[LionKing]

The Monza race wasn´t as glamorous as people like to think.
The universe aligned that day for Vettel.
Just like his 2010 title that he not once during the whole season led.


Vettel had 3 retirements in 2010. Webber had 2.

Webber crashed out in Korea in full wet conditions and rear-ended a Caterham while running in 10th place. These were his DNFs. Reliability issues happened while Vettel was leading and costing him 3 wins.

It is quite tough to claw back these huge chunks of points (~65) lost to reliability. Vettel was 122 point in front of Button in 2011 after a season which was almost as good as it gets.

[raymondu999]

Just like his 2010 title that he not once during the whole season led.

Even with his mistakes, the Vettel+RB6 package had enough in hand to win the title that year. The car let him down many times, such as Turkey, Bahrain, Melbourne, Spain, Korea...

The Monza race wasn´t as glamorous as people like to think.
The universe aligned that day for Vettel.

[...].
If it was a dry race and all that was left to decide who gets pole/wins was who could just drive their car, then the Monza 2008 win definately would have had more significance, but as it turns out, other peoples mistakes were a larger factor for him winning than his ability to beat them in a race.

of course they were. He wouldn't have had the pace to beat the top cars had it been dry, or had it been down to a pace contest amongst the various driver+car packages. Still - a Toro Rosso pulling 12seconds on a McLaren in as many laps is an impressive feat - albeit it was the number 2 McLaren driver.

Vettel had 3 retirements in 2010. Webber had 2.

Retirements are hardly the measure of a driver. Hamilton had more DNFs than Button in 2010. Vice versa in 2011 (if memory serves) but the guy with more DNFs still outscored the guy with less DNFs.

[Nando]

Vettel had 3 retirements in 2010. Webber had 2.

Retirements are hardly the measure of a driver.

It was hardly the reason for why it was written by me.