Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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FrukostScones
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Joined: 25 May 2010, 17:41
Location: European Union

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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strad wrote:
Some student groups are hardening their positions and digging in for a summer of discontent.
Screw 'em.
I am so tired of the spoiled brats.
why?
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

bettonracing
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Joined: 12 Oct 2007, 15:57

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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Crabbia wrote:Yes, this has happened, first thing that came to mind when i read your reply was the polytechneon, but that was political in nature.

That was about an oppressive government and the educated class of society rising up against it.
This, bottom line, is about money. no one is going to put lives at risk for money.
Did you hear about the riots in Vancouver last year? That was about a frikkin hockey game! Plus what may start off as a non-dangerous prank/ disruption, could turn dangerous REALLY quickly. Cram enough people into the right place at the wrong time and yell "he's got a gun/ bomb!" and you could have a stampede, or one [innocent] dead person.

Never underestimate mass hysteria...

Regards,
Kurt

RacingManiac
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 02:29

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editoria ... -the-rails

No idea their tuition was that much lower than the rest of the Canada...$6500 for 3 years is peanuts....You pay that much for 1 year in engineering school at U of Toronto, and that was circa 2003. By 2007 it was over $8k. I believe its higher now still. And some specialized degree in commerce or something costs even more...

GrizzleBoy
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Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 04:06

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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HA.

Tuition fees are around £9000 a year for UK students (what's that, about $14000-$15000?).

I actually feel ill just typing that out.

zyphro
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Joined: 02 May 2012, 16:33

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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GrizzleBoy wrote:HA.

Tuition fees are around £9000 a year for UK students (what's that, about $14000-$15000?).

I actually feel ill just typing that out.
Exactly; I'm off to Uni come October hopefully.

Can't imagine what the expenses are like for those moving to study in London! :|

RacingManiac
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 02:29

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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That is why I already feel pretty lucky compare to my American colleagues, for a big public Univerity like U of Michigan, they are paying basically twice as much as I was in Toronto for the same degree. The fact that in Quebec they are paying so much less even compare to me makes it hard to feel any sympathy for them, considering also how often Canadian federal government had to bend over to subsidize a lot of the stuff for Quebec vs other provinces....

Lycoming
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Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 22:58

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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richard_leeds wrote:
Lycoming wrote:They get no sympathy from any other canadian students; even with the planned tuition changes, their engineering students will still be paying fractions what an arts student pays in any other province.
That's interesting, engineering courses cost a lot more to run than arts courses.

Of course anyone on this forum would also say that engineering courses create more value for society too. Bargain all round!

Out of interest do tuition fees vary depending on the type of course, or are you saying Quebec tuition fees are cheaper in general?
Correct that engineering is more expensive.

Tuition does vary by program, but Quebecer's pay a lot less than canadians in other provinces. Right now, I pay $11000 a year at University of Toronto Engineering. Arts students generally pay around $5000 a year in Ontario.

In Quebec, their tuition is more like $2000 to $3500 a year. The proposed changes will be implemented over 5 or 7 years and will bring it up to about $4000 anually.

On the flipside, their tuitions have tripled from the 90's to now, though that was largely due to a tuition freeze that started in the 60's and ended in the 90's, resulting in them paying only a few hundred dollars a year for the longest time.

mx_tifoso
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Joined: 30 Nov 2006, 05:01
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Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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As much as I relate to this topic (uni student myself), if it does return to its GP-related roots it will be moved to the Off Topic section where you'll be free to continue with tuition discussion.
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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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ParanoiD wrote:
jon-mullen wrote:Give them some pot and put on Comedy Central and they'll go away.
or perhaps Ice Hockey game
It's beer and ice hockey.
Honda!

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humble sabot
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Joined: 17 Feb 2007, 10:33

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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I was perusing my facebook when i found this: An Open Letter To English-Canadians Who Might Be feeling That Quebeckers Have Taken Leave of Their Senses

Admittedly he does a better job than I could, explaining what's going on. Actually he does a better job than anyone so far on either side. On the street here it's become a bit of a cloudy issue with the people against seemingly more angry than the students. I assume they take themselves too seriously or something, if you're going to freak out over a traffic delay your self importance is going to swing around and hit you in the ass one day.
the four immutable forces:
static balance
dynamic balance
static imbalance
dynamic imbalance

bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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Would you be so kind as to post something for those of us who choose not to partake in Facebook?

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ced381
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Joined: 30 Dec 2010, 06:06
Location: Montreal

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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An open letter to my English-Canadian friends. Please circulate in your networks as you see fit.

You may have heard that there has been some turmoil in Quebec in recent weeks. There have been demonstrations in the streets of Montreal every night for almost a month now, and a massive demonstration will be happening tomorrow, which I will be attending, along with my wife, Elizabeth Elbourne, and my eldest daughter Emma.

Reading the Anglo-Canadian press, it strikes me that you have been getting a very fragmented and biased picture of what is going on. Given the gulf that has already emerged between Quebec and the rest of Canada in the wake of the 2011 election, it is important that the issues under discussion here at least be represented clearly. You may decide at the end of the day that we are crazy, but at least you should reach that decision on the basis of the facts, rather than of the distortions that have been served up by the G&M and other outlets.

First, the matter of the tuition hikes, which touched off this mess. The rest of the country seems to have reached the conclusion that the students are spoiled, selfish brats, who would still be paying the lowest tuition fees even if the whole of the proposed increase went through.

The first thing to say is that this is an odd conception of selfishness. Students have been sticking with the strikes even knowing that they may suffer deleterious consequences, both financial and academic. They have been marching every night despite the threat of beatings, tear-gas, rubber bullets, and arrests. It is, of course, easier for the right-wing media to dismiss them if they can be portrayed as selfish kids to whom no -one has ever said "no". But there is clearly an issue of principle here.

OK, then. But maybe the principle is the wrong one. Free tuition may just be a pie-in-the sky idea that mature people give up on when they put away childish things. And besides, why should other people pay for the students' "free" tuition? There is no such thing as "free" education. Someone, somewhere, has to pay. And the students, the criticism continues, are simply refusing to pay their "fair share".

Why is that criticism simplistic? Because the students' claim has never been that they should not pay for education. The question is whether they should do so up front, before they have income, or later, as taxpayers in a progressive taxation scheme. Another question has to do with the degree to which Universities should be funded by everyone, or primarily by those who attend them. So the issue of how to fund Universities justly is complicated. We have to figure out at what point in people's lives they should be paying for their education, and we also have to figure out how much of the bill should be footed by those who do not attend, but who benefit from a University-educated work force of doctors, lawyers, etc. The students' answer to this question may not be the best, but then it does not strike me that the government's is all that thought out either.

And at least the students have been trying to make ARGUMENTS and to engage the government and the rest of society in debate, whereas the government's attitude, other than to invoke the in-this-context-meaningless "everyone pays their faire share" argument like a mantra, has been to say "Shut up, and obey".

What strikes the balance in the students' favour in the Quebec context is that the ideal of no up-front financial hurdles to University access is enshrined in some of the most foundational documents of Quebec's Quiet Revolution, in particular the Parent Commission Report, which wrested control of schools from the Church and created the modern Quebec education system, a cornerstone of the kind of society that many Quebeckers see themselves as aspiring to. Now, it could be that that ideal is no longer viable, or that we may no longer want to subscribe to it. But moving away from it, as Charest's measures have done, at least requires a debate, analogous to the debate that would have to be had if the Feds proposed to scrap the Canada Health Act. It is clearly not just an administrative measure. It is political through and through. Indeed it strikes at fundamental questions about the kind of society we want to live in. If this isn't the sort of thing that requires democratic debate, I don't know what is.

The government has met the very reasonable request that this issue, and broader issues of University governance, be at least addressed in some suitably open and democratic manner with silence, then derision, then injunctions, and now, with the most odious "law" that I have seen voted by the Quebec National Assembly in my adult memory. It places the right of all Quebec citizens to assemble, but also to talk and discuss about these issues, under severe limitations. It includes that most odious of categories: crimes of omission, as in, you can get fined for omitting to attempt to prevent someone from taking part in an act judged illegal by the law. In principle, the simple wearing of the by-now iconic red square can be subject to a fine. The government has also made the student leaders absurdly and ruinously responsible for any action that is ostensibly carried out under the banners of their organizations. The students groups can be fined $125000 whenever someone claiming to be "part" of the movement throws a rock through a window. And so on. It is truly a thing to behold.

The government is clearly aware that this "law" would not withstand a millisecond of Charter scrutiny. It actually expires in July 2013, well before challenges could actually wind their way through the Courts. The intention is thus clearly just to bring down the hammer on this particular movement by using methods that the government knows to be contrary to basic liberal-democratic rule-of-law principles. The cynicism is jaw-dropping. It is beneath contempt for the government to play fast and loose with our civil rights and liberties in order to deal with the results of its own abject failure to govern.

So that is why tomorrow I will be taking a walk in downtown Montreal with (hopefully!) hundreds of thousands of my fellow citizens. Again, you are all free to disagree, but at least don't let it be because of the completely distorted picture of what is going on here that you have been getting from media outlets, including some from which we might have expected more.

Daniel
'09 Volkswagen CC Sportline 2.0TSI 'Jennie'

bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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I thank you.

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humble sabot
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Joined: 17 Feb 2007, 10:33

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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Sorry about that. I neglected to verify whether or not it would show up without being logged in. In certain cases photos will share correctly when you link directly to them.
the four immutable forces:
static balance
dynamic balance
static imbalance
dynamic imbalance

bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Students are threatening the Canadian GP

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No worries. I imagine it's very easy to lose sight of all us miscreants and neanderthals who aren't connected to others via electrons - "he says as if he's not typing the response." ;)

Until they start raiding the funds to pay for other projects, if they haven't already, the State of Georgia has a great program for college students called the Hope Scholarship. It uses funds raised from the Georgia Lottery to waive tuition, fees and the cost of books for eligible students - generally speaking, those with at least a 3.0 GPA - who attend state-run schools, like Georgia Tech and the University of Georgia, and participating private schools. It's one of those rare government programs that simply works well for all involved.

I think it's a model that perhaps deserves exploration by those governments facing issues related to the inflating costs of higher education.