Alguersuari and Buemi were better than their replacements?

[SeijaKessen]

To me, what I want to see from those drivers is some maturity, not chucking it off the track, consistently getting the car to where it can get to.

That's an interesting point. If you had to choose, which of these two drivers would you rather have, if you were looking in a midfield driver:
a) a driver that shows incredible maturity, and is a "par" driver - he'll get points in a points-scoring car and podiums in a podium-capable car.
b) a driver that shows incredible levels of talent, but is prone to occasionally binning the car spectacularly. eg Grosjean/Maldonado - winning one race and crashing the next, or crashing one race and pulling off a brilliant drive the next.

Almost sounds like the difference between Bruno Senna and Maldonado.

You know what you're getting for the most part with Bruno...Maldonado may surprise people with his drive in one race, then have a few shunts in the following races.

[Speedster]

For a young driver I would be happier with b. Look at Hamilton in 2007, he had speed right away. Speed is something that you have or haven't (sure, it can be polished a bit of course), consistency comes with experience. Having said that, some drivers are just wild by nature too, so consistency is a quality in its own right.

[raymondu999]

I agree. I'd much rather have a guy who's fast but immature, but then matures over time, rather than someone who's mature to start with, but slow.

Take a look at the 3 drivers generally touted as the best of today's grid - Vettel, Hamilton Alonso. All of them had speed, but were somewhat error prone to begin with. (I have to admit I don't remember much of Alonso's career start though)

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

For a young driver I would be happier with b. Look at Hamilton in 2007, he had speed right away. Speed is something that you have or haven't (sure, it can be polished a bit of course), consistency comes with experience. Having said that, some drivers are just wild by nature too, so consistency is a quality in its own right.

But consistency is also machine dependant.
By having a quick car Hamilton didn't need to step over and beyond the limits, although to his credit he did just that and had a brilliant first season.
My point is that pushing to get a car into the top ten, is different to pushing a car into the top 3.

I think the situation is entirely different, whereby it's much harder to shine for a lesser team than than for a top team.
Take Jaques Villenueve. A fast driver for sure, almost a double world champion(pushed the established Hill right to the wire in 1996), but not of Hamilton's calibre IMO.
Once he moved from Williams he near faded into obscurity both in terms of pace and consistency.

The reason for it, is that perhaps the driver is not in a position to let the car do the work. He overcompensates and is at more risk to looking like an idiot.

At STR, I would imagine the pressure on drivers to be immense. You don't perform, your out. This may be a way of finding the next Vettel, but it does no favours for the teams performance in general.
You are left with the situation as it is, STR are a feeder team to Red Bull, performance is secondary in the search for the next superstar.

[raymondu999]

For a young driver I would be happier with b. Look at Hamilton in 2007, he had speed right away. Speed is something that you have or haven't (sure, it can be polished a bit of course), consistency comes with experience. Having said that, some drivers are just wild by nature too, so consistency is a quality in its own right.

But consistency is also machine dependant.
By having a quick car Hamilton didn't need to step over and beyond the limits, although to his credit he did just that and had a brilliant first season.
My point is that pushing to get a car into the top ten, is different to pushing a car into the top 3.

I don't agree that pushing a car into top 10 is different from top 3, but you do have a point. People entering a McLaren/Ferrari would have a different mindset from entering a Toro Rosso. I don't think either one is "better" or "worse" though. For some people being in a McLaren/Ferrari would put pressure on them, in a "ok, I've got to win" mentality, or it would lead them to pushing less, knowing that they have a greater margin of safety from the car's "natural" pace. It depends case by case.

Take Jaques Villenueve. A fast driver for sure, almost a double world champion(pushed the established Hill right to the wire in 1996), but not of Hamilton's calibre IMO.

I don't think it's fair to say that. IIRC Hill was ahead of him quite a bit in the points, no? Just that Jacques just kept popping up with results that meant Hill was always a few points short of clinching the title.

Once he moved from Williams he near faded into obscurity both in terms of pace and consistency.

Yes. IIRC even Heidfeld whalloped him in BMW.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I don't agree that pushing a car into top 10 is different from top 3.

People entering a McLaren/Ferrari would have a different mindset from entering a Toro Rosso.

Kinda the same thing no?


One car has 1 maybe 2 teams that can challenge it. The other has 4 or 5 teams to overcome.(2011)
When the differences in the midfield are marginal, drivers are forced into finding the difference. While that is true of front running drivers, this is not comparable to a Torro Rosso driver.
At McLaren, if you dont qualify well for a couple of races you are not looking over your shoulder at the chop.

Invariably Helmut Markko would ask questions of a driver, Almost always. "Why did you do XYZ, when you couldve done ABC" in a style inimitable by anyone else.
There is no support at all at STR, it is run as a second rate team. I found this Video here of Jaime being a bit naughty, but nothing too outlandish. Check it out.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Take Jaques Villenueve. A fast driver for sure, almost a double world champion(pushed the established Hill right to the wire in 1996), but not of Hamilton's calibre IMO.

I don't think it's fair to say that. IIRC Hill was ahead of him quite a bit in the points, no? Just that Jacques just kept popping up with results that meant Hill was always a few points short of clinching the title.

Did the championship not go down to the last race?

Why would it not be fair to say that Villenuve pushed Hill to the wire?

[sAx]

Invariably Helmut Markko would ask questions of a driver, Almost always. "Why did you do XYZ, when you couldve done ABC" in a style inimitable by anyone else.
There is no support at all at STR, it is run as a second rate team. I found this Video here of Jaime being a bit naughty, but nothing too outlandish. Check it out.

No doubt played some part in Alguersuari's replacement.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

No doubt at all.

Shameful if you ask me. But it's not my team or my cash and they can do what they like.
We dont have to like them for it mind.

[SeijaKessen]

Take Jaques Villenueve. A fast driver for sure, almost a double world champion(pushed the established Hill right to the wire in 1996), but not of Hamilton's calibre IMO.

I don't think it's fair to say that. IIRC Hill was ahead of him quite a bit in the points, no? Just that Jacques just kept popping up with results that meant Hill was always a few points short of clinching the title.

Did the championship not go down to the last race?

Why would it not be fair to say that Villenuve pushed Hill to the wire?

If Villeneuve won at Suzuka, Hill did not score any points, he would have been World Champion.

[raymondu999]

I don't agree that pushing a car into top 10 is different from top 3.

People entering a McLaren/Ferrari would have a different mindset from entering a Toro Rosso.

Kinda the same thing no?[quote]
not really in my view. The actual act of pushing the car doesn't change - it's the mentality behind it that changes.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@seija
Exactly why it went down to the wire. Hill retires and Villlenuve wins, game over.

At Raymond
Pushing a front running car is the same as pushing a midfield car is it? I wonder what midfield drivers would have to say about that.
Fact is, a front running car is a front running car because it can be pushed harder.

[raymondu999]

Ay anomalic situations like Button right now aside, the act of pushing will not change. It's driving the car as fast as you're confident it will stick, or sometimes slightly over it if you're trying for a bit more.

Again though my point was that it's not a clear cut thing on what is easier for a rookie.

If a rookie starts out:
In a McLaren, he might:
A) feel pressure to win, given that his car is well capable. Which could lead to mistakes
B) feel he doesn't need to overdrive, and just drive calmly, knowing the car can act as a safety net. More mistake free
In a Force India:
A) feel pressure to outdo the car and aim for a podium. Which could lead to mistakes
B) feel that his car isn't podium-capable anyways, and drives more consistently and mistake free.


My point is that those in Starting in a McLaren vs a Force India, could still have a similar mindset relative to the car's standing in the pecking order.

[Trailer23]

Do we need to have another sit down & talk about the current drivers of STR?

Trust me, it has nothing to do with ALG being labelled as a 'Poster Boy'. The guy was a much better than these two. Today we saw that neither showed any promise (once again). How many more chances are they gonna get before Dr. Death axes 'em with another fresh blood...?

[mx_tifoso]

Look at the points scoring positions in 2011 compared to this season; 6 compared to 2. That is only up until the Valencia, and I doubt we'll see the current pair outdo Alguersuari And Buemi in the remaining races.



Alguersuari and Buemi should still be racing, if not at STR, then definitely at another team.