Run-Off Area Alternatives

[andylaurence]

OK, let's look at your idea. We'll assume that the average retardation of the astro turf and the tarmac sections is the same as the tarmac in use today, because if it's lower, then we need bigger runoff areas.

That´s the thing, you don´t.
You still have several slow down zones with 100% tarmac just like now to decelerate.

You also have zones that are 100% not tarmac, so you do need more runoff in those areas!

You're also assuming the driver can control where the car goes at a time when, by definition (otherwise he'd be on the track), he is not in full control of the vehicle.

Yes if he´s understeering he can easily steer the car wherever he wants.

Isn't the definition of terminal understeer that you can steer wherever you want but you won't go there?

If he lost control of the rear there´s nothing in the world that will help you regain control of that, you´re a passenger regardless of what you´re driving on. You do have some slight things you do but largely you won´t change the result much, like Hamilton and Vettel in Hungary, two passengers with a healthy dose of luck to continue in the race.

Exactly. For this reason, you need the tarmac to slow you down. In this case, adding slippery sections will reduce how much you slow down, meaning you either hit something harder or need more runoff.

[SectorOne]

You also have zones that are 100% not tarmac, so you do need more runoff in those areas!

Not if you simply modify the lines a bit, for example have the width less then the track width of the car.

Isn't the definition of terminal understeer that you can steer wherever you want but you won't go there?

Assuming you want to stay on track and make the turn yes. Release the lateral load and the understeer disappears.
You can´t have understeer in a straight line.

Exactly. For this reason, you need the tarmac to slow you down. In this case, adding slippery sections will reduce how much you slow down, meaning you either hit something harder or need more runoff.

There is tarmac to slow you down, worst case scenario is that while you are spinning, you´ll spin around slightly faster.
But that´s assuming we know the actual data on car sliding over tarmac vs astro-turf.

Beelse said 2-3G´s for tarmac and 0.5G for astro-turf but he still haven´t brought the source he got the data from so we don´t know.

[strad]

beelsebob;
I'm sorry you think I want to see drivers die and frankly I think that's a giant leap for you to make, nor do I consider myself stupid and I certainly don't appreciate insults being thrown my way.
IF you would read my signature you'd see that Fangio amongst other past drivers felt it should be dangerous.
Perhaps a quote might help

These men are not wild and wooly characters who
do not care if they live or die, nor are they clowns
or speed-happy maniacs.
They are men with a special skill which they have
developed over a hazardous few years. They survived
the development period and became great in their
profession.
Having survived and become champions, they lived on
an exciting plateau alone with their own kind, above
other men, envied by many who were not gifted with the
daring spirit and the ability to live life to the
fullest possessed by them."
~ Johnnie Parsons, 1970

While I don't have the written quote even the darling of the safety era Jackie Stewart has said we have carried safety too far.
And even though he raced in one of the most dangerous periods he has said he never felt more alive.
Even Cevert had said

as for the accidents and tragedy—the circus goes on. There's no room for tears."

HOWEVER, all that said the kerbs I spoke of wouldn't launch any car, just be big enough one would not want to cut or cross them on purpose for a couple of reasons. One being it might damage suspension parts and since the ride height is so low that they can feel bumps it would hurt their asses.
Nobody said anything about ramps just larger kerbs that amount to more than pretty red and white stripes that do nothing.
I am truly sorry you have such a low opinion of me.

[strad]

Hamilton

Lewis Hamilton admits to yearning for the days of Ayrton Senna and Gilles Villeneuve, when Formula One was closer to the edge, literally.

Days after the nineteenth anniversary of his hero, Ayrton Senna's death, and the day before the thirty-first anniversary of Gilles Villeneuve's, Lewis Hamilton has admitted a certain nostalgia for those 'distant' days - when the cars were more hands-on, the circuits that more dangerous and the drivers closer to the edge… often with fatal consequences.
"If you watch Sebastian Vettel now, he always runs over the astroturf and over the kerb a little more than he should," he says, "going beyond the white line, which you're not actually allowed to do but they let you get away with it. In Senna's day, if he went one foot over that kerb, it would be grass and he would spin, and be penalised. He would be right on the limit, rather than over the limit - and I respect that style of driving more.

"Now you can go beyond and get back because modern tracks have run-off areas. They used to be gravel. Hit that, and your car was damaged or stuck. Now you can push beyond, go wide and come back on.

"When you do and get away with it, you think, 'Great', but the reason I love street circuits like Monaco is there is no room for error and if you make a mistake, you pay. I don't want people to pay by being hurt, but losing time, or having the car stop; that's what racing is about.

Sutil

Adrian Sutil has given a frank assessment of the newest track on the F1 calendar, telling the Times of India the circuit was safe but “boring”:
He added that most drivers wanted more dangerous and challenging circuits:
The majority of the drivers feel this way. Of course there are a few who like the way it is, safe. There will always be different opinions about it but most of them would say there can be some changes in the circuits.
Everyone loves driving because there is thrill in it. If it was not dangerous, maybe so many drivers would not be doing it. Maybe there are certain risks in it but if you don’t take those risks, it would get boring. Circuits are getting too safe and driving is not so nice anymore.
Personally speaking, I’m just not getting that thrill. There is a wall in the corner and you have got to take it easy or you would ram into it. Formula One is dangerously fast and is all about speed. That’s why it’s interesting and we should keep it like that.

Gerhard Berger

Former F1 star Gerhard Berger has attacked the current state of the sport, saying that watching today's races on television puts him to sleep.
"I didn't turn the television off, but sometimes I fell asleep in front of it," Berger told German specialist motorsports publication Auto Motor und Sport this week.
And Berger went on to explain that in his view, the problem was that the sport has become too safe and sterile in recent years. "Safety comes first, and rightly so, but the cars and the tracks are now incredibly safe," he said.
A big part of the problem in Berger's eyes is the reduction in engine power over recent years: "My gut tells me that 650 or 750 horse power for an F1 car is not enough," he explained. "I think we could have engines with 1000 horse power again.
"Together with perfect aerodynamics, huge run-off areas and the electronic aids, the good drivers are not different enough from the less good," he added. "In my time, when you did a perfect qualifying lap you were a second faster than your teammate, because you were riding a cannon ball.

.

Anthony Davidson has opened his mouth on the current level of safety in motorsport,
He says that the level of safety has improved so much, that there basically exists a lack of respect for safety from the (young) drivers nowadays. They can get away with almost every move they make unscathed and this invites/leads to "borderline reckless-driving".
"We don't want to see fans get injured or drivers get injured or killed but the drivers should get punished. On some modern circuits it's pathetic when you see drivers going off the track and nothing happens. The [circuits] are borderline too safe. The problem is, the safer the circuit becomes the more ruthless the driving becomes. So today there is such little respect for each other's safety on the track. They feel like they can bang wheels in a straight line because 'the car is mega-safe - it will take it' is the belief and therefore you get this crazy, almost borderline reckless-driving coming into play. There's got to be compromise with safety and I feel it's just going too far at this stage. As a driver you have to live with the fact you might die one day. Otherwise you might as well just play computer games."

.

[autogyro]

It will be interesting to see how Rossi does.
Coming from a dangerous sport for men into the current F1 should be a breeze for the guy.

[bdr529]

Most of the suggestions to solve the problem are all based on the car leaving the track still sitting on all 4 wheels.
What happens when a car has already crashed and is out of control entering the corner, could be upside down, on it's side, or maybe half the car ripped off,
what happens when they hit the higher curbs or there is no gravel trap to land in, just acres of pavement, Just how far will a car upside down slide ?

There was a problem and the answer was pave the run-off areas. and now this is a problem and we will combat that with another great idea, and that may just cause some unforeseen problem down the road.

Its like using a Visa card to pay MasterCard.

[autogyro]

Most of the suggestions to solve the problem are all based on the car leaving the track still sitting on all 4 wheels.
What happens when a car has already crashed and is out of control entering the corner, could be upside down, on it's side, or maybe half the car ripped off,
what happens when they hit the higher curbs or there is no gravel trap to land in, just acres of pavement, Just how far will a car upside down slide ?

There was a problem and the answer was pave the run-off areas. and now this is a problem and we will combat that with another great idea, and that may just cause some unforeseen problem down the road.

Its like using a Visa card to pay MasterCard.

My friction surface would work with anything that was moving.

[bdr529]

My friction surface would work with anything that was moving.

My motorcycle has a larger contact patch


I don't know enough about your idea to say it would work.
Does this material get bolted down or just rolled out like a blanket ?
Does it have to be layed over pavement or will grass/gravel be ok ?
Whats the material made from, is it fire retardant, and will it work the same if it is covered in water ?
What if the material teares, will this loose material cause a problem for the car that is crashing,
If it does tear, how quickly can it be repaired or replaced ?

[strad]

There was a problem and the answer was pave the run-off areas. and now this is a problem

Isn't that the way it always goes? Especially with the FIA? Like rules , when you creat one fix you create another problem much of the time. That's part of why I go for the KISS principle.. Make kerbs they do not want to go over or use.

[SectorOne]

Make kerbs they do not want to go over or use.

We have those already, great example in SPA, he did not want to go over them but because he spun he did and got launched 3m up in the air, hit the ground hard and set his car on fire.

[strad]

I can only think you are talking about the GP2 incident.
First. He went over the kerb BACKWARDS and not the type of kerb I have discussed.
Second that was a one in a million incident and with the safety of today cars he walked away unscathed.
People just don't or don't want to get it.

[SectorOne]

He went over the kerb BACKWARDS

Absolutely correct, sometimes when cars loose control, exactly that happens, rear leading the front.

and not the type of kerb I have discussed.

Ok, but i can tell you those curbs are definitely not curbs they want to go over.

Second that was a one in a million incident

An identical one like that possibly but it´s not the first time these sort of curbs has tried to send cars flying.
Vergne was pretty lucky in Monza where only the front was sent up in the air. Not good for the back though.

[strad]

Once again we saw Vettle and others all four off,,receive a warning, continue to do it without receiving any sanction.

[Ciro Pabón]

Guys, it doesn't matter how psychotic (or how rational, or how brave or how emotional or how macho) are the drivers.

If you want to design a track you call a track designer. They are not macho, they are guys who have an ethic code and a license, with obligations toward persons, including F1 drivers.

If you ask a physician to impair drivers before the race because this proves how big are their bollocks, he will recommend YOU to take an anger management class or to visit a psychiatrist.

Any civil engineer would do the same if you ask him to endanger lives.

Simple.

Now, secondly:

Leca, gravel or tarmac, all have the same friction coefficient: around 0.3.

Pavement has a friction coefficient that varies between 1 and 2.5, depending on what you're using to slide over it.

Metal has around 1 (as in the case of the car upside down showed in previous photographs), rubber around 2.5.

Now, the contact patch is more or less (more more than less ) irrelevant to derive the friction you get.

[Waywardism]

why not just drop the runoff area of the track by a few inches. Car goes off cant rejoin over the bump.

I like this idea, seems like a lot of work though.

I also like those strips they have in Spa at Les Combes that Vettel ruined his floor on today, they could put those everywhere.