Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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Who?

Hamilton and Perez
38
31%
Hamilton and Button
61
50%
Rosberg and Perez
8
7%
Rosberg and Button
14
12%
 
Total votes: 121

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PlatinumZealot
550
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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IIRC Toe in makes the car easier to turn in, but unstable in straight line (accel, braking etc)...IF the front end is so good as you say, wouldn't they have good turn in already?

Suppose the front end in fact has poor turn in, that is why they use more toe in?
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Nando
2
Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 02:30

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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You mean Toe out surely?

From what i know, Toe out helps with turn-in and makes the car nervous at higher speeds because it pulls in two directions,
While Toe in stabilizes the car as the forces are pulled towards the same "point"
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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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Think of roller blades. When you point your toes in on roller blades you are unstable, but pointing your toes out makes you stable. You want to do a turn you point your toes in. Just from my memory.
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banibhusan
1
Joined: 06 Aug 2008, 13:08

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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Yes it's toe-in that makes the car stable on the straights and toe-out gives a better turn in stability. Nando is right.

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siskue2005
70
Joined: 11 May 2007, 21:50

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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Why do u need stability on a straight?
Did u mean stability during braking?

Nando
2
Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 02:30

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

Post

siskue2005 wrote:Why do u need stability on a straight?
Did u mean stability during braking?
It´s not that you need it, it´s the effect of it.

I´m not sure how the braking is but i would suppose straight, zero-cambered, zero toe, tires are optimal,
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Schurcedes
0
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 02:46

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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Rosberg and Button, both because they have been in their respective teams a while now and would be more comfortable than the newcomers. All bets are off for 2014, though.

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siskue2005
70
Joined: 11 May 2007, 21:50

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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banibhusan wrote:Yes it's toe-in that makes the car stable on the straights and toe-out gives a better turn in stability. Nando is right.
wrong
toe-in gives stability while turning and braking
toe-out give more speed while turing and more oversteer - it actually makes the car unstable while turning, but a good driver can use it to his advantage

Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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Awesome! A driver thread that has veered into tech talk. :D

Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

Post

siskue2005 wrote:wrong
toe-in gives stability while turning and braking
toe-out give more speed while turing and more oversteer - it actually makes the car unstable while turning, but a good driver can use it to his advantage
Perhaps you'd like to give a technical explanation to your definitive statement.
Nando wrote:From what i know, Toe out helps with turn-in
Here's where it's easy to get tripped up, especially if you're relying on driver feedback. If they say Change X "helped" turn in, what does that mean? What defines better turn in? Let's assume that "better" turn in is that when the driver makes an input, the car responds to it and reaches its next state faster.

I'm gong to make the case that neither toe in nor toe out universally achieve that. Let me give you an example of another dynamic system that any engineer can relate to - a spring/mass/damper setup. If your damping coefficient is say 0.4, adding damping will make the thing ring out to steady state faster. If your damping coefficient is 1.3, adding damping will reach steady state slower. In that sense there's no universal direction of "more is always better/worse." It's contingent on the rest of the system and what you're trying to achieve.

Now if you want to know what toe does as far as forces are concerned... there's one school of thought about slip angle drag into the turn and things of that nature. There's some effect there, maybe. Consider though when you make an initial steer... in the toe in vs toe out case, which tire (inside or outside) is doing the majority of the cornering work? Now when you have load transfer away from the corner, how is that going to change the front axle forces? In which case will there be an increase, and in which will there be a decrease?
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Nando
2
Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 02:30

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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I was thinking mainly in the initial part of turn-in. Surely it should make the front end slightly more pointy or agile?
I understand what mean about the right side having the most grip but i don´t think the difference is that much in the inital phase of turn-in?
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Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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Nando wrote:I was thinking mainly in the initial part of turn-in. Surely it should make the front end slightly more pointy or agile?
You can make a car more agile by adding understeer, so I don't disagree there. But continue and expand on your line of reasoning.
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McMrocks
32
Joined: 14 Apr 2012, 17:58

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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I really have concerns about the McLaren drivers for 2013. Button struggles sometimes. maybe he should fire his car engineer. Perez caused now 3 crashes in the last 3 races. This doesn't look good for 2013. I really like Button but....

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Joie de vivre
2
Joined: 02 Sep 2010, 10:12

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

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McLaren won't be near podiums next year.

Nando
2
Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 02:30

Re: Hamilton vs Rosberg and Button vs Perez in 2013

Post

Joie de vivre wrote:McLaren won't be near podiums next year.
And if they are, it will simply break down.

Reliability have been sub-par this year in every department except the actual driving bit.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."