Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Raptor22
Raptor22
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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FoxHound wrote:@ raptor

You still not getting what I'm saying. I'm aware the best drivers generally gravitate to the fastest cars.
However in Schumachers case, in 18 seasons he has had a car capable of winning in 11-12 of those seasons. I'll exclude 1991, 92, 93, and generously 1996 and 2010-11-12.

Other than Hamilton, has any driver ever had such luck?
[...] They didn't necessarily gravitate to the fastest car. They brought a understanding to the teams that allowed the teams to build cars that were fast enough for them to do what they needed it to.

This is quite involved but essentially these drivers had a mechanical understanding of their cars that allowed the engineers to understand what their requirement was and to be able to translate that into mechanical design. Its a SYMBIOTIC relationship.
Schumacher in the case of the 412T just brought a better set up to the car that Berger and Alesi could not. Those two drivers were both in Benetton's in 1996 and they were rubbish in that car because neither understood the car enough to get it working for them. Were both rubbish drivers? No but they lacked the mechanical understanding to take a car to the next level

You argue that the car was good so the best drivers went there. Wrong. The best drivers are able to work with their engineers to create the best car FOR THEM!
Examples: When Senna went to McLaren for 1988 he had no idea what the MP4/4 as going to be like. The MP4/2c was problematic. All he knew was that the Honda engine was powerful and economical and that he would have an edge with it. More importantly when he met the engineers he would be worked with and Gordan Murry, he was pleased that they accommodated some of his requirements for the car like a variable rate mechanical linkage on the throttle ( cam essentially), different brake callipers etc. Having that degree of input helps a driver to stack the deck in his favour.

Schumacher did the same at Ferrari. Working with Rory Byrne he knew that Byrne would be able to deliver a car allowing sufficient adjustment for him to experiment with in 1997. The F310 he knew was going to be a problem because John Barnard wouldn't change the front end suspension geometry to suit Schumacher. Barnard believed in building cars that tend toward controlled understeer. Byrne changed that to car that was more neutral and tending toward oversteer. Which is exactly how Schumacher wanted the 412T to be set up in the post season testing and bang, it was instantly faster.

Building cars to suit drivers needs is a hall mark of Adrian Newey. One of the reasons Adrian likes working with Webber is because Webber they agree on what a race car should feel like.

Vettel went to RedBull and got into a car that was adjustable enough to suit his style but was essentially built around Mark Webber (who had threatened in 2008 to score RedBull's first win on occasion).
Last edited by Steven on 14 Oct 2012, 23:54, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed personal comment

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SeijaKessen
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Raptor, Senna did have some idea what to expect regarding the Honda engine since the Lotus 99T was powered by the Honda RA166-E. The 4/4 was the RA168-E.

Raptor22
Raptor22
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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SeijaKessen wrote:Raptor, Senna did have some idea what to expect regarding the Honda engine since the Lotus 99T was powered by the Honda RA166-E. The 4/4 was the RA168-E.

Yes he did, thats why I said it was the only known element to him. see here: "When Senna went to McLaren for 1988 he had no idea what the MP4/4 as going to be like. The MP4/2c was problematic. All he knew was that the Honda engine was powerful and economical and that he would have an edge with it."

snip snip snip word for word.

The 168 was already tested in the Lotus 99T and Williams FW11 in 1987. He knew what the engine was capable of. He just wanted a better chassis than Lotus could build since he could see they on the decline technically.

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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@Raptor

Your examples of Alesi and Burger compared to Schumacher is flawed I feel.
Any driver, any driver worth their salt should be able to set up a car. Some car's have easier set up windows than others, this is not driver dependant, but engineering led.
The DNA of this is not in what the driver wants but what the engineer can provide for the drivers needs.
Yes some driver's are better than others at getting setup work done, but the greater reality is some cars are more easily set up than others. Depends on so many varibales, that to isolate the driver and say "yea he is amazing" when the engineers and designers are responsible for 90% of the work. Driver Feedback is crucial, but no driver can be a horsewhisperer you are making Schumacher out to be.

Burger demanded Todt at Ferrari in 1993, and the rest fell into place. Rory Byrne joined for the real success to return.
It is Byrne's leg work, Ferrari's budget(biggest ever in F1) and FIA collusion that allowed Schumacher his unbroken 5 titles.
Statistics do no bear this out. Hence why I feel his 2 titles at Bennetton where worth more than the 5 at Ferrari, this may seem a provactive statement, but I'm not alone in thinking this.

The same applies to Vettel currently. He will most likely win a 3rd straight title by the age of 25. Is he worth higher regard than Hamilton or Alonso? I wouldn't have thought so. Is he worth more praise than Schumacher at this stage in his career? I doubt that very much.....3(likely)titles compared to 1? Lets not forget it took Schumacher another 5 years to win another title. I still rate Schumacher far higher than Vettel.
Are Red Bull and Vettel reaping the benefits of Adrian Newey's Genius? I very much think so.

Vettel is on course to be statistically the greatest driver F1 has ever seen. Yet I think there 2 better drivers on thegrid every time he races....
JET set

SGeorge
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Joined: 27 Feb 2014, 15:17

Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Love this thread. Felt the need to chuck in my 2 cents........

Hamilton is, on his day, unbeatable - but he is inconsistent compared to the true greats in my opinion.
Vettel is a formidable driver, but at this stage in his career he is (maybe unfairly) still considered flattered by his car.

Senna, with his qualifying statistics (% of poles) is nigh on unbeatable, he was able to get the best out of the car, more often than other people - and that is going to be hard to argue against, based on the % of poles he gained.

Clark was considered by some of his very talented peers to be on another level, and as such you can say that he was up there.

Then there is Fangio.........

If i was to create my own team, with drivers from any era - not taking into account the differing skills required for different era cars, I would probably have:

Senna, Clark as the Dream Qualifying/ Fastest pairing

In race trim, it is difficult to argue against Schumacher for getting the job done. Over each year in his "first" career he was consistently up there, and gained crucial points where it mattered. Growing up watching F1 he was always there, and i remember his charges mid-race.

So my opinion.......... Senna fasest over one lap......... Schumacher over an entire race.

CBeck113
CBeck113
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Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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I am the fastest driver of all times. Why you may ask? Simple: None of the named drivers has ever driven directly against each other in the same equipment and the same conditions, therefore no factual evidence exists to determine who was fastest. Therefore I declare, by using the fanboyism implemented by all others that answered this thread, that I'm the winner. :-D
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

SGeorge
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Joined: 27 Feb 2014, 15:17

Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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CBeck113 - My apologies for missing you out from my post, If you are happy for me to do so, I can replace Clark for you?

CBeck113
CBeck113
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Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Thanks, but I'm not in it for the fame :D
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

George77
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Stefan Bellof the fastest. He was even faster than Senna in 84 Monaco with a worse car....

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Sebp
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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George77 wrote:Stefan Bellof the fastest. He was even faster than Senna in 84 Monaco with a worse car....
...which was illegal. (Just saying :D)
No smartphone was involved in creating this message.

DaveKillens
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Jarno Trulli, the qualifying specialist.

Many times he qualified well above what was expected of the car. His racecraft and race pace was questionable, but at times he pulled out some wonders in qualifying. And since we're looking at drivers who excel at this one thing, and ignore championships and racecraft, to me he's the one.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

LionKing
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Jarno Truli was good on one lap. He was on par with Alonso (I think in quali Truli was 16-15 ahead.)

Alonso is not that of a qualifying ace though.

JimClarkFan
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Hamilton, Schumacher, Senna

I don't think I could choose between them

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theformula
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Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Hamilton has to be right up there. This is not fanboyism, but if you listen to what credible people have to say when watching him on track, ie. Rob Wilson (driver coach) and Mark Hughes, you can't ignore the fact that he has incredible natural speed and crucially an amazing feel of the car....
Hamilton's blessed with an ability to make a car do pretty much anything he wants - Mark Hughes

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Fastest F1 driver of all time?

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Well now we can put Hamilton into some perspective with Kimi going against Alonso. It will shed light on Massa's pace as well.
As for shumacher Rosberg was a good test, but i feel Michael can't be in his prime in his forties. He had his but kickek by Rosberg however.
For Sure!!