Points change in 2014

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Red Schneider
1
Joined: 17 May 2012, 22:43
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

Yeah, let's do this, because then everyone can feel above average.

DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

The points system is not perfect, and Formula One has had at least 19 different ways to count the points. No matter how it is counted, there is always some form of valid criticism for some aspect. I suggest that an examination of each method, and their respective strengths and criticisms should be considered first to reveal those valid criticisms that continually lead to modifications.

For instance, from 1950 to 1959 the fastest lap was worth one point. Until 1991 not all races were counted, for instance in 1980, 10 out of 14 races counted, 5 from first 7, 5 from last 7. And naturally, the highest scoring results were counted. Imagine if a team and driver had the luxury of not having a horrible race count against them. I bet Alonso wished he could have discarded Spa.

So maybe some fundamental parameters need to be discussed.

Should everyone get points, and how would Bernie's payouts for manufacturer's points be adjusted?

What is more important, number of wins, or consistency? Is it a legitimate question to ask whether any driver not winning a race be deserving of the WDC? Maybe winning a race should be a requirement for being the WDC.

What should be the value of a win compared to finishing 2nd? Should the gap be tiny, moderate, or just huge?

Should pole positions and/or fastest lap be worth a point or two?

How about a playoff format as presently practiced by NASCAR? Maybe with 3 races to go, only winners are eligible, and the total points accumulated for just those 3 races would determine the champion? Or have it come down to just one grand final race?
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

User avatar
Spankyham
1
Joined: 17 Dec 2011, 19:14

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

beelsebob wrote:I've got an idea for a "new" points system. I think this would work much better:

1. 10pts
2. 6 pts
3. 4 pts
4. 3 pts
5. 2 pts
5. 1 pt

Bob

/me ducks
I thought that was by far the best points system. Personally I don't feel any compelling reason to give lots of cars points. This also rewards winning with a decent premium. No interest in points for fastest lap, pole, best hair-do etc.

There is some logic to distinguishing the other positions to determine ranking of teams at the end of the season. But that could be done with a separate points system.
"He was the fastest driver I ever saw - faster even than Fangio"
_______________________________- Mike Hawthorn on Alberto Ascari

User avatar
Websta
0
Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 15:18

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

The 10, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 point system worked back in 2002 and before because there were many more retirements:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Formu ... ampionship

Compare this to the 2012 season: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Formu ... _standings

There are now far fewer retirements (partially helped by DRS and ricepaper tyres aiding overtaking) - if only the top 6 were awarded points, talk about boring battles for the midfield. The current points system is working well at the moment, and the three stooges will have a slightly better chance to score points now that there are only two stooges.

MadMatt
125
Joined: 08 Jan 2011, 16:04
Contact:

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

I would add to the pre-2002 system that we only allow 9 points to the victory but 1 point to the pole position. That has been my motto for the past 10 years now :

1st place : 9 points
2nd place : 6 points
3rd place : 4 points
4th place : 3 points
5th place : 2 points
6th place : 1 point
Pole position : 1 point

:)

TzeiTzei
5
Joined: 09 Mar 2011, 21:19

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

I like the current one, even if it broke the "winner gets 10 points" consept. I like following the midfield (and the teams at the back of the grid), and giving points to the top 10 gives us a much better view of how are the midfield teams performing. They dont have to luck into a top 6 result.

ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

There is a change in 2014 being looked at, with P1, P2 and P3 having the lions share of the points, but with new rules on cars getting to the finishing line as well.

First the points system:

P1 - 50
P2 - 42
P3 - 37
P4 - 28
P5 - 25
P6 - 23
P7 - 21
P8 - 19
P9 - 17
P10 - 14
P11 - 12
P12 - 10
P13 - 9
P14 - 8
P15 - 7
P16 - 6
P17 - 5
P18 - 4
P19 - 3
20 - 1
P21 - 0
P22 - 0

Fastest Lap - 5 (Must be on lead lap to get the points)

Pole will still get zero points.

As for the points, drivers must be within 2 laps of the lead lap to get points, and must cross the finishing line to be classified, you crash out on the last lap or have a failure you do not get the points and are not classified if you are in a Lotus in 6th, but a Marussia in P18 can get 4 points and be 2 laps down. Also, drivers will have to make it to parc ferme as well, stopping the culture of stopping as your fuel is marjinal. Drivers will have 8 minuites to get to parc ferme from the first car passing under the checqured flag.

Slife
0
Joined: 01 May 2009, 22:05

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

Do we even need points in F1 ? Perhaps some people would like Bernie's medal system.

Or what if we instead of using points the FIA used the driver's time to complete each grand prix, and the lowest total time is the winner ? Retirements would get the full 2 hours for their time, and for those who were lapped, would add their (average laptime * number of laps down) to get their total time.

motorloon1993
3
Joined: 03 Sep 2012, 20:36

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

Another problem I think is I imagine having a large number of points on offer would make the drivers a lot less aggressive to avoid spinning off and ending up with nil pois.

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

DaveKillens wrote: For instance, from 1950 to 1959 the fastest lap was worth one point. Until 1991 not all races were counted, for instance in 1980, 10 out of 14 races counted, 5 from first 7, 5 from last 7. And naturally, the highest scoring results were counted. Imagine if a team and driver had the luxury of not having a horrible race count against them. I bet Alonso wished he could have discarded Spa.
Without going too much off topic, but it would not matter for Alonso if 4 races aren't counted: Sebestian could scrap then 3 races where he didn't score points (DNF or otherwise) and his worse point-finisher P6, loosing 8 points. Alonso can scrap 2 none point finishers, 9th and a 7th, also loosing 8 points. That would not help him.


Personally, I would award 3-5 points for Qualifying. It would certainly make things more interesting due teams being so conservative in Q3 now to save tires. I will not go for points for fastest lap. That would lead to cheap penultimate lap pitstops were someone quickly puts on fresh tires. Though you could level that one out i.e. award the person that stringed the fastest 10 consecutive laps together.
#AeroFrodo

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

IMO we have to reward high peak results - but we also have to reward consistency. I wonder if a numeric progression is the way to go - why not a geometric progression? Personally I'd like a points system where each additional place higher up rewards a multiple of the place behind it, instead of an arbitrary selection of points. If the numbers add up too fast to be really comfortable viewing - 2^10 is, after all, 1024 - then add one or two decimal points to the end. The decimal would be something most viewers will hate at first - but IMO it's a change that people will get used to. Remember how the current generation cars looked out of proportion on first launch in 2009? With the oddly narrow rear and oddly wide front wings?

IMO while it is unfair that Alonso had races like Spa count against him, as unfair as it was to have Valencia count against Vettel, or Abu Dhabi against Lewis Hamilton etc - I still think we shouldn't do the "discard X races" points schemes - precisely because it hurts some drivers more than others. For example if we had a hypothetical driver last year scoring 20 3rd places that would net him 300 points and he would have been champion above Vettel and Alonso, at 281 and 278. But discarding 4 worst results would put him down at 240 points, versus 273 Vettel and 270 Alonso. We run the risk of punishing innocent consistency.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

Stradivarius
1
Joined: 24 Jul 2012, 19:20

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

raymondu999 wrote:IMO we have to reward high peak results - but we also have to reward consistency. I wonder if a numeric progression is the way to go - why not a geometric progression? Personally I'd like a points system where each additional place higher up rewards a multiple of the place behind it, instead of an arbitrary selection of points. If the numbers add up too fast to be really comfortable viewing - 2^10 is, after all, 1024 - then add one or two decimal points to the end. The decimal would be something most viewers will hate at first - but IMO it's a change that people will get used to. Remember how the current generation cars looked out of proportion on first launch in 2009? With the oddly narrow rear and oddly wide front wings?

IMO while it is unfair that Alonso had races like Spa count against him, as unfair as it was to have Valencia count against Vettel, or Abu Dhabi against Lewis Hamilton etc - I still think we shouldn't do the "discard X races" points schemes - precisely because it hurts some drivers more than others. For example if we had a hypothetical driver last year scoring 20 3rd places that would net him 300 points and he would have been champion above Vettel and Alonso, at 281 and 278. But discarding 4 worst results would put him down at 240 points, versus 273 Vettel and 270 Alonso. We run the risk of punishing innocent consistency.
For a long time I have been thinking about exactly the same, regaring the points system. Said in the mathematical language; if the top n finishers are awarded points, the number of points p awarded for position x <= n would be p = G^(n-x) for a number G which is chosen based on how much one would like to reward race wins (good results) contra good consistency. In your case G = 2 and n = 10, so that the positions 1 to 10 in a race would give respectively; 512, 256, 128, 64, 32, 16, 8, 4, 2, 1 points. If the guy in front of you scores twice as many points as yourself, you have stronger motivation for trying to push and overtake than what is currently the case. The winner would get half of all the points that are awarded in a race, compared to the current nearly 25%, which should make it more important to win races than to secure your podium finishes.

Maybe it isn't obvious what balance one should have between rewarding got results on one hand and consistency on the other hand. But if we look at the extreme values of G (defined above) it may be easier to picture the consequences. First, if G is very large, i.e. larger than the number of races, we would end up with Bernie's medal system where the number of wins decides the championship, the number of second places is only relevant if the number of wins is equal, etc. This would obviously encourage everyone with a title ambition to try and win every race. I think this would be very exciting to watch.

The other extreme would be to make G very close to 1, for example G = 1.001. This would mean you get 507.4 points for a 10th place and 512 points for a win, and something in between for a place between 1 and 10. This would make it virtually irrelevant what place a driver finishes, as long as he is among the 10 best. And would obviously be very careful not to take any risk that might put him outside the top 10. There would definitely not be much battle for the win among championship contenders, as no sane person would risk 511 points in order to maybe gain 1 point. The number of DNFs would be the most significant title decider. Kimi Raikkonen would have been world champion last season with such a system. And in 2011, the title fight would still have been open until the final race between Vettel, Webber and Alonso, despite Vettels dominance. So a larger G (at least 1.5) would give us fans and viewers the most fun, I believe. Today's system is pretty close to a G around 1.3.

I think the points system should be chosen in order to encourage hard racing and make it worth taking some risks to gain a place. Before the last change to the points system, it was some times a problem that a driver was happy with a 2nd place and didn't challenge for the win, simply to avoid any extra risk. Some races in 2005 with Alonso comes to my mind. Alonso only did what obviously payed off in the championship and scored good points in most races. While Kimi Raikkonen on the other hand, took more risks and suffered from that. Nürburgring 2005 where his tyre failed on the last lap comes to my mind.

User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 01:21
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

The geometric progression is an interesting idea. Giving a point for place 12 and multiplying by 1.5 for each position, one gets:
Position:   12  11   10    9    8    7    6    5    4    3    2    1
Points:    1.0 1.5 2.25 3.38 5.06 7.59 11.4 17.1 22.6 38.4 57.8 86.5
This can be beautified by rounding most numbers, rewarding the winner a bit extra and fixing the low scores, resulting in, from place 1 to place 12:
100 60 40 25 15 10 7 5 4 3 2 1, which would be quite fan friendly. It is also interesting to note how close that comes to the 10-6-4-3-2-1 we had for a long while; with the geometrical progression close to the 9-6-4-3-2-1 we had before that.

Not that I see anything wrong with the current points system.
Last edited by hollus on 09 Jan 2013, 19:48, edited 3 times in total.
Rivals, not enemies.

User avatar
paoloc
0
Joined: 10 Jun 2012, 01:31
Location: Rome - Italy

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

I've tried to create an evolution of the current system resumed in this table:
Image

As you can see from the "Diff. to preceding Car" and "Winner pts Ratio" columns I tried to adhere to most of the concepts of the current system (same ratio between tenth and first) and extend the point prize for better finishing position (I don't like the current system differences that is quite flat for position 4 to 8 ).
Extending point to 14th place would make racing more interesting also for back markers: Caterham vs. Marussia would have been 12pts against 9 with 7 points finish for Caterham and 5 for Marussia.
D&G
Daje er Gas

Just_a_fan
591
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Points change in 2014

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:For my taste there has been already too much diddling with the points system. They should have kept the old one.
Agreed.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.