2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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Nando
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Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 02:30

Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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Vasconia wrote:
Nando wrote:
bonjon1979 wrote:Just because they have a track, doesn't mean they're allowed to use it. Ferrari weren't doing any on track tests to improve their car.
I think you might be confusing Mugello with Fiorano.
I was obviously referring to the official mid-season test made in Mugello. That was an excellent opportunity for Ferrari to indroduce and check some important updates.
Yes this is obvious..
It was simply a little mistake by Bonjon. Nothing to see here, move along.
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beelsebob
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Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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kilcoo316 wrote:
beelsebob wrote:You suck at subtraction.
hahaha - I'm an idiot!

Sorry! :oops:


That would be a net 2-2.2 second difference in their absolute times over 12 months [assuming all else is equal]. More astoundingly, it would probably equate to a net ~1.5 difference in 3 months (which I have great difficulty in believing - not unless there was a clear fundamental flaw in W03 that is not in the public domain).
I disagree. It would have meant that if Merc were a top team last year and were fighting for the championship. The reality though is that the W03 probably wasn't being seriously worked on for the last 4-5 months of the year, and the W04 was probably being hammered out seriously for all that time. So in reality they've probably made up that difference in the space of 7-8 months, which sounds much more doable, especially with an all new aero team.
Given they were around half a sec off in Aus 2012 (in qual) and around a sec a lap off in race... and that the other teams will probably have put around about 1-1.2 second on their cars... then Merc *may* be in-around the pace.
I can certainly see that, yes.
***BUT***... it keeps coming back to ambient temperatures for me. They looked great in China last year when it was cold. They look great in Barce this year when it is cold. If it had been 25+degC in Barce this year, then I'd have less trouble believing their runs are representative.
Agreed, there's certainly a question hanging over whether the tyres will degrade in higher temps. That said, I also don't believe all the hype about "if they're doing well at this temp, they won't be in the warm". Then every single team except for Ferrari would be in trouble. More surprisingly, Lotus would be in trouble, which would be especially odd, given that they are the ones who could deal with the hot only last year.

Mika1
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Joined: 16 May 2012, 20:17

Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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Temperature is a factor, sure, but some people are overreacting.
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Ferraripilot
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Joined: 28 Jan 2011, 16:36
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Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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kilcoo316 wrote:
Given they were around half a sec off in Aus 2012 (in qual) and around a sec a lap off in race... and that the other teams will probably have put around about 1-1.2 second on their cars... then Merc *may* be in-around the pace.



This is false. Fernando himself stated no one has found that kind of time.

Diminishing returns with these 2013 cars. If Red Bull, Mclaren found more than half a second I would be thoroughly amazed. Their cars just haven't evolved that much since Brazil. What silver bullet did they find buried in their cars, and the answer is they haven't any silver bullet. Their front wings, brake ducts, rear wings, sidepods etc. have not really changed. I obviously have no CFD breakdowns of their cars but I'm also not blind, there's nothing revolutionary there from last year that would yield a full second.

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Ferraripilot
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Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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kilcoo316 wrote: Agreed, there's certainly a question hanging over whether the tyres will degrade in higher temps. That said, I also don't believe all the hype about "if they're doing well at this temp, they won't be in the warm". Then every single team except for Ferrari would be in trouble. More surprisingly, Lotus would be in trouble, which would be especially odd, given that they are the ones who could deal with the hot only last year.



Last Saturday Merc say 30C track temps and W04 performed flawlessly.

kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
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Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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beelsebob wrote:Agreed, there's certainly a question hanging over whether the tyres will degrade in higher temps. That said, I also don't believe all the hype about "if they're doing well at this temp, they won't be in the warm". Then every single team except for Ferrari would be in trouble. More surprisingly, Lotus would be in trouble, which would be especially odd, given that they are the ones who could deal with the hot only last year.
The way I see it is - on a cold day:


If teamA can get a lot of heat into the tyres quickly, they can get them into the window for prime operation on their 2nd lap out of the pits (1st hot lap). Thus, you get a great lap in. Then the tyre loses its "new" benefit and drops back to its normal (relatively stable) grip levels.

However, if teamB put less heat into the tyres, then they half heat it for their 2nd lap (1st hot lap) and get it running optimally (thermally) on their 3rd or 4th lap. By which time, they've taken the "newness" out of it and are using a tyre probably 0.5 second lower in potential than teamA. Although its now giving them their best laptimes as its thermally "on".


Over longer runs, the degradation curves may be somewhat similar between the teams. But, what may be a concern is that teamA are not running up against the upper limits of the tyre (optimal) thermal envelope as due to the colder ambient conditions, the tyre/wheel is able to dissipate the additional heat whilst remaining within the upper temp limits.




Lotus' times aren't great on the face of it. Neither are McLaren's. Both are renowned for being light on the tyres. Ferrari, well, their car has been observed as sliding around a little, meaning they could represent teamA in the scenario above. For historical reasons, I am concerned Mercedes could be the same.

RBR is the outlier. Apparently very quick in the wet/damp with Webber, but not showing much in the dry. Have they been trying to address their previous tendency to burn through tyres a bit quicker than their competitors? Have they went and got it a bit wrong?

kilcoo316
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Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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Ferraripilot wrote:
kilcoo316 wrote:
Given they were around half a sec off in Aus 2012 (in qual) and around a sec a lap off in race... and that the other teams will probably have put around about 1-1.2 second on their cars... then Merc *may* be in-around the pace.

This is false. Fernando himself stated no one has found that kind of time.
That 1-1.2 sec includes the rest of the 2012 season post Australia.

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Ferraripilot
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Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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kilcoo316 wrote:
Ferraripilot wrote:
kilcoo316 wrote:
Given they were around half a sec off in Aus 2012 (in qual) and around a sec a lap off in race... and that the other teams will probably have put around about 1-1.2 second on their cars... then Merc *may* be in-around the pace.

This is false. Fernando himself stated no one has found that kind of time.
That 1-1.2 sec includes the rest of the 2012 season post Australia.


Ah yes I most certainly agree then. A little over half a second during the season and perhaps if they're lucky another half over winter. If Merc aren't within 2-3 tenths of the top contenders I will be surprised. They have made up a solid couple seconds and corrected fundamental issues with tire degredation as their warmer Saturday running proved. Also remember W03 really had to be dialed back in terms of performance all in the name of tire wear and the DDRS system I suspect W03 actually had a lot more downforce than we know, but due to tire wear/suspension geometry issues (?) they could not dial it in. Regardless, they now need to show they can in-season develop like a top team or they will never be considered one. That IMO, is the bigger question than if W04 is currently a good car which it clearly is.

Mika1
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Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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It a big difference between Luc Bigois or Aldo Costa, Bell and Elliot designing the car.
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kilcoo316
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Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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Ferraripilot wrote:If Merc aren't within 2-3 tenths of the top contenders I will be surprised.
I would be surprised.


I see them as *likely* to be somewhere between 0.3-0.7 seconds off the pace.

kilcoo316
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Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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Mika1 wrote:It a big difference between Luc Bigois or Aldo Costa, Bell and Elliot designing the car.
Yep - but I don't think I can emphasis enough the pace you need to develop at just to stick with the top guys, never mind close in on them.

Nando
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Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 02:30

Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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"Mercedes have recorded some head-turning times with the programme they have been operating to," Horner, whose own team will start as favourites for fourth successive constructors' and drivers' titles with triple champion Sebastian Vettel, told reporters on Wednesday.

"Their car looks quick, and with Lewis joining the team they will naturally take a step forward. He is worth lap time, which is why they signed him.
"Lewis, as we all know, is a world-class driver, and he is going to raise their level, and they will be a factor this year," said Horner.
http://www.supersport.com/motorsport/ar ... Id=1824444
“I finally took the chance to watch some of the other teams for a bit,” he wrote on his personal website, looking back at the Catalunya test. “Nico (Rosberg) had a great final day of testing in his Mercedes, which shows how dangerous he and Lewis will be in the future. But there are a lot of others to keep in mind as well.”
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/188651/1/v ... mpaign=rss
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CjC
CjC
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Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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Ferraripilot wrote:
kilcoo316 wrote:
Given they were around half a sec off in Aus 2012 (in qual) and around a sec a lap off in race... and that the other teams will probably have put around about 1-1.2 second on their cars... then Merc *may* be in-around the pace.



This is false. Fernando himself stated no one has found that kind of time.

Diminishing returns with these 2013 cars. If Red Bull, Mclaren found more than half a second I would be thoroughly amazed. Their cars just haven't evolved that much since Brazil. What silver bullet did they find buried in their cars, and the answer is they haven't any silver bullet. Their front wings, brake ducts, rear wings, sidepods etc. have not really changed. I obviously have no CFD breakdowns of their cars but I'm also not blind, there's nothing revolutionary there from last year that would yield a full second.
First up I'll hold my hand up, I havent bothered reading the last 10 or so pages so I'm sorry if this has already been brought up.

Mclaren had a fast car last year with push rod suspension and lower chassis, supposedly there is a gain with a higher chassis alone and Mclaren now have a high chassis, so couldnt Mclaren have found afew more tenths here? The few tenths found could however be negated by the pull rod set up, even so, the pull rod suspension layout should give an aero gain, the set up however could be costing them performance on a longer run.

I have to say in my opinion the Merc side pod/ exhaust layout looks similar ish to Mclaren 2012 and now Mclarens doesnt so there is a step forward for Mclarens there.

Suppose what I'm saying is if Team A copies Team B's 2012 philosophy in 2013, Team A are a step behind Team B in 2013 for that particular philosophy, ie. Ferrari and Mclaren's front suspension.
Just a fan's point of view

shelly
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Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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Ex redbull and ferrari (and user of this forum) rodi basso has just started an interesting collaboration with italian blogf1.it.
Sadly it is in italian but with google translate is still readable:
http://www.blogf1.it/2013/03/05/pre-sea ... -dai-test/
twitter: @armchair_aero

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Forza
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Joined: 08 Sep 2010, 20:55

Re: 2013 Testing - Barcelona 2: 28 Feb - 3 Mar

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Via AMUS

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