Tyre Suggestions

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Pup
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Re: Tyre Suggestions

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mx_tifoso wrote:F1 is a specialized series and there isn't any other car out there that can do what it does. The only thing that compares is GP2 and even that is slower than the top 3 cars that we have. And that's it, because the other prototype series are in the endurance category so that itself renders the tire to be of a completely different specification.
F1 isn't that special. It has evolved to it's current state primarily through rule changes that were adopted to reduce both speed and cost. Change the tires and the teams will adapt - simple as that.

As for a spec tire across different series - obviously there would be limits. The tire would have to be able to structurally stand the downforce and cornering speeds of the fastest series while still being affordable to the lower ones. And there would have to be a broader range of compounds available. Structurally, I could imagine there being two or more spec tires for different classes. But, I think the main thing is that the moulds would be consistent throughout. I don't see any reason why that couldn't happen.

Personally, I think this era's cars look a bit clownish with their big balloons.
Last edited by Pup on 27 Mar 2013, 17:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Sebp
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Peter Windsor rants about this topic in the latest TRE episode. His main target are the teams and drivers, who in his opinion bear a lot of responsibility for the situation, as it is right now.
He's mainly defending Pirelli which I can understand to a certain degree. But that doesn't change the fact that we're not getting enough flat out racing.
Does anyone know how long Indy road cicuit tyres last? Those would have withstand similar loads I'd imagine.
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Pup
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I think they have to withstand much greater loads, if Indy '05 was any indication.

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Sebp
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I'm not talking about oval tyres.
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flynfrog
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Sebp wrote:I'm not talking about oval tyres.
:lol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Unite ... Grand_Prix
Following several tyre failures before the race, most spectacularly on Ralf Schumacher's Toyota during Friday practice, Michelin advised its seven customer teams that the tyres provided for the race were not safe to use for the entire race, even though they had been providing working tyres for the race since 2001. The situation was worsened by the 2005 Formula 1 rules, which forbade tyre changes during the race; and also by a resurfacing of the circuit, which resulted in greater tyre wear.

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Sebp
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Yes, we all saw that embarrassing episode... :roll:

There are different tyres for ovals and road circuits in Indycar. I was just wondering how long those that are most closely related to F1 tyres (road circuit tyres) last.
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notsofast
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raymondu999 wrote:
notsofast wrote:Just let the teams buy whatever tires they like, from whichever supplier they prefer, as long as those tires are available on the open market and are popular enough that they sell at least 1000 tires a year outside F1. In other words, no custom tires. And no restrictions on tire size, etc.
are you suggesting putting road-legal, commercial tyres on an F1 car? :shock:
Well, actually I was thinking that the teams could buy Nascar tires, Indycar tires, V8 Supercar tires, whatever.
Cam wrote:
Pup wrote:4) The FIA could make a tire standard across several series so that the manufacturers aren't making tires specific to F1.
This is a great idea. I'm sure it's possible that all FIA open wheel series can have the same rim and tyre specs, maybe not this year, but next year. This would allow any tyre company to turn up on race day and offer their wears - for any series. Teams could choose per track if they wanted too - and pay for them in cash on the day. This would see a 'spec' tyre that any tyre company could join into, give the teams a wider range of choice, is cost competitive as there is a market across all open wheel series, is cost benefit as the tire companies don't have to change specs each year, plus, we get to stop this shenanigans with what we have now.
Not only do I like this idea even better, but I really like your Freudian slip.

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MOWOG
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Re: Tyre Suggestions

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I hope you chaps will permit a newbie to weigh in here? Thank you. Thank you very much. :D

While the discussion here is about tires, what is REALLY being talked about is making the racing exciting again. Some of us (like me) are old enough to remember Formula One as it was in the 50's and 60's. I may have rubbed elbows with some of you at Watkins Glen when BRM brought their insanely complex H-16 engine to the track. You may recall Ken Tyrell's 6 wheeled racer, electronic suspensions and turbocharged 4 cylinder engines that made 1200 horsepower in qualifying trim.

Formula One today touts itself as the being the technilogical pinnacle of motorsports but it is not. That honor belongs to ALMS, where hybrids and diesels and bio-fuel racers compete head to head. Formula One today is to racing what processed cheese food is to cheese - a weak, watered down and essentially tasteless imitation of the real thing.

After Malaysia and the gigantic flap over team orders, Red Bull's Christian Horner acknowledged that most of the cars were just "cruising around out there" for most of the last half of the race. That isn't racing. That is a stage managed carnival designed to squeeze as many sheckels as possible out of the rubes. We have been duped into thinking we are watching racing when in fact what we are watching is very weak tea indeed. :-"

Pirelli is simply doing what the FIA has told them to do, which is make tires that last 10 - 20 laps. Why a tire company would want a worldwide audience to witness its product self destruct is a mystery to me. Seems counterintuitive to a sensible marketing strategy, but there you are. Jim Clark used to complete 2 or 3 races on one set of tires. And they were treaded tires that looked a lot like what was on your Mom's Mustang.

I have colleagues elsewhere (another forum that shall remain nameless) who pontificate that racing is always about which driver can conserve fuel and tires enough to get the car to the finish line ahead of the others. And there is some truth to that. Way back when, mechanical failure often dictated race results. Engines used to blow up now and then. Gear boxes would scatter their component parts all over the track. But no more. Today's mechanicals come with something just short of the famous Hyundai 10 year/100,000 mile warranty.

No, my new found friends. The fault is not with tires or refueling, it is with aerodynamic wizardry that makes the cars too fast for any track in the world today. Great racing is born of mechanical grip, not aero grip or pixie dust. Get rid of the dastardly wings, diffusers, trick undertrays and Coanda exhaust systems.

A series that prides itself on technical viruosity but which forbids virtually any form of technical innovation that is not related to aerodynamics is fooling itself.

So, here's what to do.

1. Re-introduce refueling, but not from high pressure rigs that spew a plume of lethal combustibles all over the pit lane when they malfunction. Limit fuel tank size so that cars cannot complete a race without refueling. Let the teams find the best balance between outright speed and fuel economy.

2. I like the idea of three tire compounds. Let the teams decide which tires to use. Tire A is fast but fragile. Tire B is not so fast but more durable. Tire C is highly durable but slow. Limit the number of tires available to the teams for the race weekend. Let them figure out whether it is best to burn up their fast tires for qualifying only to fall into the clutches of their competitors during the race. It's called strategy and it is something that is sadly lacking from today's contests.

3. Introduce the "sonic orifice" used in other series. This device when inserted into the intake system limits the amount of air the engine can take in. Then let the teams figure out which combination of cylinders and fuels gives the best results. If it turns out a tri-turbo Y-9 running on peanut oil is the answer, then so be it. And kudos to the geniuses who find the best answer.

4. Forget longevity standards for engines and transmissions. The fans could care less. If the equipment breaks, it breaks. Nothing will induce the engineers to figure out how to build in reliability faster than seeing their car sitting silently in the edge of the track while the other contestants rush by.

5. Ban carbon brakes. They have no role in the real world. There was a time when drivers could outbrake another car into a turn. It was exciting stuff.

6. KERS and DRS? Mehh.....not sure it adds much to the racing for all the expense and complexity involved. I prefer the "push to pass" technology that IndyCar uses, and which will be available to F1 in the new turbo era coming soon. I mean, if some team wants to try KERS to gain a competitive advantage, they should be free to do so. But I doubt any of them would.

Finally, I think the STP 4wd turbine car was pretty darn exciting. Let's loose all the silly and overly complicated technical regulations and put some RACING back in the racing. I could care less if Felipe Massa's Ferrari has a trick new floor configuration. What I want to see is a pack of snarling race cars nipping at each other during the closing laps of each race, fighting for the lead. I want to see the crowd on its feet, urging their hero home. I want to be dancing around the living room screaming at my TV during the last lap.

As it is, too often, I just fall asleep and have to watch the conclusion of the race in replay from my DVR. THAT is what should worry King Bernie and CVC Partners and the FIA most. They have taken the product and turned it into pre-chewed mush. I don't know what it is anymore. All I know is it is NOT racing. :(
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Cam
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MOWOG wrote: So, here's what to do.
I see what you did there - you tagged back to 'relevance' - refuelling, bio fuels, tires that last, no carbon brakes, no kers drs etc.These are all things that manufacturers would agree with. You'll have a tough time trying to convert some of the more vocal members.

All these discussions are really pointless, unless we decided that F1 either has relevance or no relevance to the car industry. Any attempt to blur the lines causes issues. If F1 has no relevance, go nuts on whatever you want to do. If F1 has relevance, then the gear and show must tie back so the average punter driving his Corolla can relate. It's pretty obvious that they can't have it both ways.

Same for the tyres. There's absolutely no reason why they can't build and use a race tyre that I can go buy myself and put on my car. But that would come back to... what's the word people.... relevance.
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Stradivarius
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Historically, formula 1 has been special because it has featured the most advanced technology and the fastest cars in the world. For a long period the engines had the main focus, but for a very long time now, the aerodynamics has been the most influential technological area that separates formula 1 from everything else *. In a way this has been good for the sport, because the performance of f1 cars has been so incredible compared to (almost) everything else, which has made it very special. But unfortunately, the aerodynamics has gotten in the way of the close racing that many people want to see.

This is the background for today's tyres. It is an attempt to combine the advanced aerodynamics of today's f1 with close racing. It seams clear to me that removing the aerodynamic element is out of the question. This would make formula 1 cars too ordinary and in the long run, f1 could risk loosing its position as the pinnacle of motor racing, because they would be slower than other cars that extensively use aerodynamics to optimize the performance.

In my opinion it is wrong to ask Pirelli to make tyres that don't last. I can see the reason for going down that road, but like many other stupid rule changes in the past, it wasn't thought through. Once we witnessed the competitors stop racing long before the finish, it became obvious that something is wrong. I would have tried a different approach. For example, it is a well known fact that some tires disintegrate more than others. The result of this is a dirty surface outside of the racing line, which causes problems for anyone who tries to overtake. So one of the goals should be to avoid this problem. Another well known fact is that when the racing line gets rubbered in, it provides better grip than a "green" track, which also causes problems for anyone who tries to overtake. When overtaking, you have to leave the racing line and stay off the racing line in situations when you need grip the most, i.e. under braking and often in the following turn. I would try to design tyres that minimize the disadvantage of doing so. This would also reduce the aerodynamic impact of being right behind someone else. It would be less of a problem to choose a different line in order to avoid the turbulence of the car in front, hence making it easier to get close enough for a passing attempt.

I do not like the rule that requires everyone to use two different types of tyres. This only forces everyone to do similar strategies. If you could use only the hard tyres, you could be able to run a different strategy with fewer stops, and vice versa. Then it would be up to Pirelli to bring two different tyres with different qualities, but equal in overall performance. A problem we have often seen since the rule of two different tires was introduced in 2007, is that one tyre is good and one tyre is bad, with the result that everyone is using the same kind of tyre at all times, i.e. the good tyre for qualifying and the first two (or three) race stints, and the bad tyre for a shortened final stint. For some reason I think the tyres worked better in 2011. Why did they change?


* The engines are of course still very advanced. If we compare today's engine with the engine with which Schumacher won the 1994 championship (which was also a V8 engine), the improvements made to the Otto engine (now, an almost 140 years old concept) are quite amazing. Not only is the power output of today's engines higher than in 1994, despite a reduction in the displacement from 3.5 to 2.4 liters, but engines today run reliably for 2-3 race weekends compared to just a single race in 1994. However, the development of today's engines has been next to non-existent for the last years.

Gettingonabit
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MOWOG wrote:..................................... :(
Pretty much agree with all that you posted, only thing different would be maximum fuel usage per race. =D>

Tommy Cookers
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MOWOG wrote: what is REALLY being talked about is making the racing exciting again. Some of us (like me) are old enough to remember Formula One as it was in the 50's and 60's. I may have rubbed elbows with some of you at Watkins Glen when BRM brought their insanely complex H-16 engine to the track. Jim Clark used to complete 2 or 3 races on one set of tires. And they were treaded tires that looked a lot like what was on your Mom's Mustang.
Re-introduce refueling, but not from high pressure rigs that spew a plume of lethal combustibles all over the pit lane when they malfunction.
Introduce the "sonic orifice" used in other series. This device when inserted into the intake system limits the amount of air the engine can take in. Then let the teams figure out which combination of cylinders and fuels gives the best results.
Finally, I think the STP 4wd turbine car was pretty darn exciting.
off thread ?
the H-16 BRM was intended to 'simply' use mostly existing V8 parts, but it was full of new design faults
(they gave Jim Clark all the fresh parts, he best conserved them and won the only H-16 engine victory)

when Andre Boillot drove the 1919? Targa Florio his riding mechanic refuelled with the car kept moving at some speed

the Lotus 4wd turbine lost the Indy 500 because the engine 'safety' mistakenly shut it down after a caution period
(like the 8 or so fatalities similarly caused early in the Starfighter project)

..... all this from the 'fun' era (of improvisation), when $50000 would do what now needs $20000000 (but works every time)


btw, don't flow restrictors kill passing ? (or give endless passing & repassing ?)

Jersey Tom
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Tommy Cookers wrote:btw, don't flow restrictors kill passing ? (or give endless passing & repassing ?)
There's a favorable balance of power and drag.. putting a "plate" (as they say in some series) on a F1 car may or may not be a good thing. Getting the right balance to allow for some slip streaming is a good thing. Still one of the better races I've watched was the Indy 500 a year or two ago - I would have expected it to be a parade, but a good amount of slip streaming allowed for passes on what are otherwise high downforce cars (speaking about winged open wheelers in general).

But that's besides the point.

What to do with tires.. a good question. One thing not to forget is the condition of the tracks - plays in hugely to tire performance and strategy. There's only so much a tire company can do sometimes, and the amount of give-up and wear you have is at the mercy of the pavement you're driving on. Having a variety of road surfaces or age of surface can be a very, very good thing to make for rich and interesting racing over a complete calender.

More to tires though - I stick by my assessment that the current situation is absurd. It's the biggest crutch on what had been boring racing several seasons ago.. and while it jumbles up the end finishing order, it's gotten ridiculous. Ridiculous to need to go to this extreme. Didn't need it in the 80's and 90's with a single supplier and pretty decent tires. I also still don't think Pirelli can make a race tire to the level of a Bridgestone or Michelin.

Why not just open it up? Screw these silly band-aid rules. Have the tire supplier make available a range of tires, that the teams can buy and use how they want. Maybe you can order whatever tire you want for whatever race. Maybe three options per race - a prime, an option hard, and an option soft. Maybe just two - a prime and option - but for crying out loud make a good product and let the teams decide what strategy they want to run, be it durable or give grip / high give-up or a mix and match. If you want to run 3x Primes and 1x Option to take advantage of circuit asymmetry - go for it! Want to run one compound all race? Why not. At least then you'll see a broader range of performance based strategy, and teams going out there and trying to attack rather than defending by conserving tires to a ridiculous extent all race.
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Cam
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Jersey Tom wrote:...and teams going out there and trying to attack rather than defending by conserving tires to a ridiculous extent all race.
This. This is the problem the FIA can't grasp. If they want to mess with the tyres, do so in a manner that results in all out attack - not defence.

Well put JT.
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MOWOG
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Re: Tyre Suggestions

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A lot of people are coming at this discussion from different points of view, but the common denominator is that there is great dissatisfaction with the state of Formula One racing in 2013.

I would suggest that THIS is what we all would prefer to see! [-o<

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