Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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GitanesBlondes
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Joined: 30 Jul 2013, 20:16

Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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timbo wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:Newey knows exactly what happened that day, and he is the only one who was in the Williams camp that has gone as far as he has with his statements. I give him a lot of credit, since as we see even here, it's difficult for people to accept Senna made a bad judgment that day. If he had run Damon's setup, he would still be here today.
It's just amazes me how you keep repeating that the only motivation of people defending steering failure hypothesis is that of somehow defending Senna.
Both variants put question on his judgement. If he had a faulty column, and we have indications that it developed over time and the amount of flex was apparent at least the lap before, it's too his decision to continue the race and risk his life.
I keep repeating the same question -- why his car developed massive understeer when leaving the circuit?
It might be that he lost the rear end first then corrected. But if you repeat what Newey said, than I have to point to you that the two phase "pendulum" motion that causes the car to leave the circuit to the outside of the corner is two oversteer events. If you make parallels with Smiley's accident then you have to notice that he crashed the wall with significant radial speed component. In Senna's case it was almost completely tangential movement.
As for Senna loosing car due to bumps, you can watch two his accidents in Mexico. They look nothing like what happened in Imola.
Timbo, the understeer has already been discussed. Everything comes down to the ride height of the Williams and that the chassis was bottoming out. Damon Hill's car was not doing that at all.

It also amazes me people continually ignore that the Renault telemetry showed the steering was working just fine until impact. Blaming the steering makes it easier for people to accept what happened because it absolves Senna of all blame. The ride height being culpable in what happened changes that dynamic to one in which Senna now is at fault.

Regarding the Mexico City accidents, he wasn't driving a car with the sort of unstable rear end that the Williams had in the early part of the 1994 season. The Peraltada shunt in June 1991 was down to him trying to take the corner in 6th gear instead of 5th. He downshifted to 5th when he realized he was carrying too much speed and the balance in the car was lost. Altogether different situation there than Imola. Then again, the similarity could be found in that he was trying too hard to gain time in both situations that put himself into avoidable positions.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

ilferrari
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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GitanesBlondes wrote: Honestly, try welding two pieces of metal together, and then attempt to snap it with your own two hands.

The amount of force required to do so is so immense, that you won't be able to do it.

You would then have to believe in spite of your being unable to do so, that through normal driving motions, that one could actually perform such an incredible feat of strength in a sitting position.

The bumps are what causes the bottom of the car to bottom out, thus sending the car straight towards the wall. If Senna had been running the car at the height Damon Hill had his FW-16 at, nothing would have happened, and he would have finished the race barring any mechanical failures.
Another guy who swallowed everything he watched in the Nat Geo documentary, aka Williams lawyer defense case. And way to miss the entire point about the steering column breaking - the column was proved to have fatigue cracks through most of the weld point before it had broken. Don't tell me you also believe that it was normal for the steering wheel to move several centimetres away from its normal position, even though it did not do anything like that during the previous laps?

It was entirely normal for those cars to ground through there and correct the steering a little over that bump. Damon Hill did exactly the same correction on the same lap. It does not explain why Senna then reapplied the left lock and nothing happened, and he ran in a straight line into the wall. The telemetry showed that the steering torque dropped to zero, and just because there was an errant spike in torque as the car bounced into the wall does not prove that the steering was functioning normally.

munudeges
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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We've been through this. Read the thread before commenting further.

Zustoya
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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SennaFanForever wrote:Hey


If I remember right I've seen an official telemetry document of the 94 Senna crash released by the Williams team a few years ago.
With other words, I'm very sure I did.


Anybody of you knows where I can find that?
Hi,
No official telemetry has been released by Williams to the best of my knowledge. However, you can find all the telemetry graphs and in-depth analysis of the five plausible causes of the accident - including never seen before evidence and insights - here: http://www.martinzustak.com/tamburello. Watch the book trailer and decide whether you want to read more. Hope this helps and let me know what you think.

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Zustoya wrote:Hi,
No official telemetry has been released by Williams to the best of my knowledge. However, you can find all the telemetry graphs and in-depth analysis of the five plausible causes of the accident - including never seen before evidence and insights - here: http://www.martinzustak.com/tamburello. Watch the book trailer and decide whether you want to read more. Hope this helps and let me know what you think.
Thanks for the link. I think this is really nice summary of the accident and I particularly enjoyed the way it is present, without overly sensationalistic or dramatic approach which is often present in the other articles and videos on the subject of Senna incident.


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Shrieker
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Zustoya wrote: Hi,
No official telemetry has been released by Williams to the best of my knowledge. However, you can find all the telemetry graphs and in-depth analysis of the five plausible causes of the accident - including never seen before evidence and insights - here: http://www.martinzustak.com/tamburello. Watch the book trailer and decide whether you want to read more. Hope this helps and let me know what you think.
I've read 60 pages of the book. What strikes me so far;

- Left front tyre angle analysis: After entering and upon leaving the grass run off area the left front tyre is at no point turned towards left. This is very inconsistent with the claim that there wasn't a steering failure. If the steering was intact and the car was merely understeering because of bottoming, then the underside would be supporting the weight of the car and it would be even easier to point the front wheels to the left by applying steering to the left.

- Damaged Williams Black Box: It had a total of 20 memory chips. "18 would lose data once the power supply failed, while 2 chips were able to retain data even in the case of a power failure. Only two chips were damaged, the two being those two that were capable of storing data after the power had gone." (To give this one the benefit of doubt, the source is cited as 'S-files' which to my knowledge isn't %100 reliable).

- Final moments of the Onboard footage: "As Senna was leading and facing a clear track, ten seconds before the accident the director decided to switch to the Tyrrell of Ukyo Katayama. There was a delay of several seconds because RAI had to be notified about the switch and Katayama's camera had to be activated."

"By sheer coincidence, the swtich to Katayama's Tyrrell took place exactly at the point when Senna's Williams was about to leave the track. However, the next frame on the tape is not an image from Katayama's car but 14 seconds of blurred pictures and gray lines. According to the testimony of FOCA TV personnel in court, the switcher pressed the wrong button and transferred to Berger's Ferrari instead. As Berger's camera wasn't activated, the tape only contains interference until the right button was pressed and footage from Katayama's car appears."


To be perfectly honest, I did not know of these details before. The last two clearly point towards a cover up. What are the odds of those two separate events taking place together at the same time ? And then there is the analysis of the yellow button on the steering wheel involving comparisons with the previous two races of that season AND the practice/qualifying sessions of the Imola weekend. The analysis clearly shows that steering wheel flex was well out of order at the time of loss of control.

The book is most definitely worth a look.
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Zustoya
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Thanks Shrieker for your interest and kind words,

the first part of the book really just recaps what is already known from the various sources - i.e. the Katayama switch issue appeared in C Hilton and R Williams books, the yellow button analysis & telemetry came from CINECA - although there are some new observations as well, for instance, the measurement of flexing range in the 11 minutes of available on-board footage between Brazil '94 and the end of Lap 5 at Imola. Most of the fresh findings are however in the second part of the book.

JimClarkFan
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Most plausible to me, having not read too much around the topic, and from looking at the footage, is that the car bottomed and it propelled him into the wall.

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Moanlower
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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I think thi's is the telemetry you're looking for

Image

Check this site for more info http://www.senna-web.com/eng/other/accident.html
Losers focus on winners, winners focus on winning.

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Shrieker
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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JimClarkFan wrote:Most plausible to me, having not read too much around the topic, and from looking at the footage, is that the car bottomed and it propelled him into the wall.
But what caused so severe bottoming that caused loss of control in the first place ? Senna had negotiated the same corner at roughly the same speed gazillion times during the weekend. Also, during the race he negotiated the corner with heavier fuel loads at least twice at racing speed; on the first lap and then on the 6th lap. What happened on the 7th that it (the bottoming) sent him into the wall ?
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
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Zustoya
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Shrieker wrote:
JimClarkFan wrote:Most plausible to me, having not read too much around the topic, and from looking at the footage, is that the car bottomed and it propelled him into the wall.
But what caused so severe bottoming that caused loss of control in the first place ? Senna had negotiated the same corner at roughly the same speed gazillion times during the weekend. Also, during the race he negotiated the corner with heavier fuel loads at least twice at racing speed; on the first lap and then on the 6th lap. What happened on the 7th that it (the bottoming) sent him into the wall ?
The bottoming analysis is part of Chapter 13 on Aerodynamic instability.
Here are the videos referenced in the book:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2f2i7tUN7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCFmYKkw6VE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUpth2QSWmU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF0Zh0C-zA0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBbLJvFW5Ck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RohiGS5Ac6U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnxWZDzhRZY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HOtPfscH-c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpaMH96Bf8A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbZ7mz--7FI

muelte
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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From what I understood from an old documentary about senna accident, it was lower tyre pressure due to the safety car lapping so slow (it wasn't exactly a super car those days) for a few laps just before the accident. Tyres got very cold and lost pressure, making the car running lower than usual (ride height was very low then) Senna pushed hard again as soon as SC left. Car bottomed and had sudden loss of downforce. Then we all know what happened...

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Shrieker
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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These two are very telling if they're anything to go by. I'd love to see the yellow button analysis of the tamburello corner on lap 6 (maybe the footage doesn't exist) or on his practice/qualifying laps. I wonder whether there's any onboard footage of his practise/qualy laps from the same weekend. Logic says a reference is needed for tamburello. As things stand, steering flex judged from the analysis of the yellow button seems way off the charts just prior to loss of control.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk

Zustoya
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Shrieker wrote:
These two are very telling if they're anything to go by. I'd love to see the yellow button analysis of the tamburello corner on lap 6 (maybe the footage doesn't exist) or on his practice/qualifying laps. I wonder whether there's any onboard footage of his practise/qualy laps from the same weekend. Logic says a reference is needed for tamburello. As things stand, steering flex judged from the analysis of the yellow button seems way off the charts just prior to loss of control.
Lap 6 footage through Tamburello doesn't exist or has never been publicly released. In the official video review of the 1994 season, the Lap 6 footage starts JUST past the point of the accident. Analysis of the practice/quali laps from Imola and through Tamburello exist but cannot be published (copyright).

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