Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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walrus
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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idfx wrote:theory:
the difussor the FW16 created a Coanda effect reversed.
Is it possible to create a simulation in CFD, with this model with Coanda effect ?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ing%29.jpg
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/P1020453.jpg
http://modelbrouwers.nl/media/albums/25 ... .55.47.jpg
I don't think that is a FW16, but a 1993 FW15D Ayrton used during the winter tests.

FW16 had a V-shaped rear wing

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Just a bump to remind people that Senna's accident was caused by running the unstable FW-16 at a ride height that was far too low for Imola.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

walrus
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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I disagree with you GitanesBlondes. ayrton died for a sterring column failure. The camera car is very clear

aral
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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walrus wrote:I disagree with you GitanesBlondes. ayrton died for a sterring column failure. The camera car is very clear
Oh for goodness sake. Not all this again? Nobody can say for sure if the column broke as a result of the accident or whether it caused the accident. Its over, just move on.
I suppose you know who killed JFK, and it wasnt Oswald?

walrus
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Ohh please.. you can see the steerring wheel collapsing before the crash. You can't be so blind... it's an evidence.

Richard
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Just a bump to ask if Ayrton Senna F1's answer to Godwin's law? We don't need to drag this out over and over and over again.

IMHO It was Prince Phillip, Mossad and the CIA. There are plenty of grassy knolls near the track too, but no Parisian style underpass.

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turbof1
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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On request I'm reopening the topic. Play nice or the door shuts again.
#AeroFrodo

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mikeerfol
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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So, I found this at another forum...

http://autosprint.corrieredellosport.it ... nna/15126/

From Chrome Translate:
Exclusive document: telemetry Senna

by Alberto Sabbatini

There is still someone who raises doubts about a failure in the steering of the Seine as a result of the accident that killed Ayrton. I want to help dispel these allegations with this exclusive document that propose to your attention: the reproduction of telemetry Williams of the Brazilian champion.

It is a unique document that the undersigned has faithfully recreated from the original telemetry that has passed through my hands for a few minutes, twenty years ago. 'll be there to say how and why it was entered temporarily in possession because it is part of the secret sources journalists, but suffice it to say that in those days immediately following the tragedy, many people have had access to those documents that are then become one of the main tests of the process. writer at the time worked for the weekly "Rombo" whose pages was published in 1994, this document.

First of all, dispel a myth: it is not true that the telemetry Senna had been destroyed, the proof is that I got to read it, like me and the experts of the court. Williams had on board a number of controllers, and a team of at least one Renault engineer. The latter has been irreparably damaged (although there are those who whispers had been destroyed on purpose to not disclose certain data), but the team has recorded what happened on that day, Williams Senna. It was a telemetry "simplified" because they lacked information regarding the operation of the suspension (probably the team had more units on the car), but the tracks that I have been able to examine were the values ​​of some key components central to theories about the incident: steering , accelerator and speed . And this is enough to understand what happened.

The original telemetry was on graph paper and full of colorful diagrams and paths. In the rebuild I have deliberately omitted the least significant data leaving only the most important lines: those that were related to the torque applied to the steering wheel (dark blue line, expressed in Nm), the hydraulic pressure steering ( green line expressed in psi) for Williams had the power steering. The other two important lines that are red , indicating the opening of the throttle butterfly from 0 to 100 and that of the speed (line blue ) in km / h.

Diagrams are dramatic , that in a few cold lines sum up a human drama : the last terrible moments of the life of Ayrton Senna. It refers to those few seconds of round fatal. Seine passes the finish line, the controller resets the timer and starts counting the time. On the second 11, indicated on the abscissa (the horizontal baseline ) Senna begins to address the tambourine, the blue line indicates that Williams is traveling a little over 300 km / h: 306 km / h for accuracy.

Suddenly the dark blue line that indicates the torque applied to the steering expressed in Newton goes to zero instead stops increasing (Point A) . Senna is an anomaly because in a fast corner and is applying a force to the steering wheel to keep turning left Williams: therefore the value should go up, do not go to zero.

The explanation comes from the green line, the hydraulic pressure in the power steering that after a sudden spike also begins to fall toward zero ( point B ). It is proof that there is an obvious problem with the steering that does not respond to the promptings of the pilot.

On the second 11 "3 , 30 cents after the anomaly recorded by the sensors - so a normal reaction time - even the pilot realizes that something is wrong in the steering system and tries to fight back. partializes gas by 50% , you can see from the red line indicates that the throttle opening that falls in the middle ( point C ). It is a very anomalous behavior seen is that the mouth of the Seine Tambourine which under normal conditions can be covered in full. , but the problem persists : the partial deceleration does not provide a remedy because obviously the fault is irreparable.

Just 2 tenths of a second to Senna to understand that the problem is very serious, so much so that the second 11 "5- Seine off the foot completely from the accelerator ( the red line drops to zero) and try to brake hard ( blue line speed that starts to go down). But then his fate is already sealed: after 1.3 seconds, for him, perhaps infinite, Williams will impact against the wall (according to 12 "8): the values ​​measured by the sensors will be reset ( Point D ) and at that time the arm murderess suspension hurt to death Ayrton.

Every time I open this file and examine the document that summarizes the telemetry Ayrton, even after twenty years, I am a choked up and I feel great sadness for those few colored lines summarize the final moments of the life of a pilot and I think like a movie review , through those diagrams, the desperate struggle of Ayrton to avoid crashing into the wall of the Tambourine.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Given that this is a journalist's self edited version of the data (sorry, colourful lines) I'd say its useless at best, and misleading at worst.

PIus, I don't think this is anything extra to what has been on the CINECA website for years now:

http://www.cineca.it/en/content/senna-car-accident
Not the engineer at Force India

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thomin
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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I dunno, I'm certainly no expert on telemetry, but I don't see a clear cut case here. Assuming that the data is correct, I can't see how any driver would go on at half speed when the steering column snaps. That would only be remotely possible if the steering column went slowly, not suddenly. What's the evidence for that? AFAIK, the steering column did have fatigue cracks, but the snap came suddenly. Am I wrong there?

Secondly, again, not being an expert, but if the steering column snaps, I would expect the corresponding line (dark blue) on the telemetry to go down suddenly and completely, not to go up and down until the impact. So there must have been some force applied on the steering column till the end, like for example an attached steering wheel. And while the green line wiggles off slowly, I would imagine that this would be equally compatible with Senna losing front end grip, understeering off the track.

Ultimately, I don't think we'll ever know the exact cause.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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timbo wrote:Actually his head movement is relevant to the discussion. IMO he tried to prepare himself for the impact, which means he felt that impact was inevitable which is more consistent with steering failure than bottoming out momentarily.

For me, The head movement to the left was due to...

Mid corner, G-forces pushing the drivers head to the right, so his neck was holding his head central, once the unexpected steering shaft snapped, the car went straight on, therefore the drivers head joults to the left as its unexpected.
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NathanOlder
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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GitanesBlondes wrote:
Steering column failure would not have caused the car to oversteer as it did.

Ok, How about, The car botttomed out, It Oversteered, Senna corrected the oversteer in a fraction of a second, the sudden force and change of direction on the steering column which is already under high load due to the speed of the corner then caused the steering column to break and send the car off in a straight line to the wall. The cars dont normally oversteer at such high speeds due to the downforce, so normally its slower and less forces involved.

I truely believe this happedend, and there is no evidence to prove this wrong.

Yes the car Oversteered,
Yes Senna corrected this with super human reaction,
Yes the Steering column snapped,
Yes the car went straight on,
Yes Senna then applied the brakes,
Yes Senna was Killed.
GoLandoGo
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walrus
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Also Forghieri, Alboreto, Tarquini and autosprint were sure that Senna died for a sterring column failure. On the camera car you can see the steerring wheel collapsing just before the interruption. This is a fact

Richard
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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There's no evidence to say it wasn't Prince Philip either. This is a fact.

There really is nothing to new to say on this matter other than personal opinion on just about every possible scenario, along with some very unlikely scenarios.



ps - The Prince Phillip ref comes from Mohamed Al-Fayed blaming the UK royal family for assassinating Princess Diana. There used to be a UK radio comedy programme (Dead Ringers) with a running gag of serious discussions being interrupted by Al-Fayed shouting "It was Prince Phillip, Mossad, the CIA, MI5, MFI!"

pps - MFi was a furniture store

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