F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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SectorOne
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F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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Quite an interesting story.
Ferrari's former head of performance management has admitted that the F2007, which won the constructors' title, used an illegal floor during the opening race of the season.
Speaking to Racecar Engineering, Stepney gave details of the 2007 'spy-gate' scandal of which he was at the centre of after he passed secret Ferrari data to McLaren's Mick Coughlan.
Before that though, he admitted he knew the team were using what he thought was an illegal rear-wing and a moveable floor which is deemed illegal under the regulations.
He discussed both developments with his former colleague, Coughlan, during an informal chat ahead of the Australian Grand Prix. "I like to try to win on a fair basis but when I was there I disagreed with something that was going on within Ferrari," he told the magazine.
"I thought it was not correct, and although I was wrong to discuss it [with a rival], winning until you get stopped was not the correct way. It went against the grain." Coughlin reported the revelation to his bosses at McLaren.
Then team principal Ron Dennis sought clarification from the FIA on the matter.
The rear-wing was declared legal, but the floor wasn't. However Dennis chose not to protest the result of the race - which Ferrari won. In a latter seen by the magazine, Dennis wrote: "We chose not to protest the result of the Australian Grand Prix even though it seems clear that Ferrari had an illegal competitive advantage."
Had McLaren protested, it's likely Ferrari would have been disqualified, resulting in the loss of ten points for Kimi Raikkonen and handing the title to Lewis Hamilton.

http://www.f1times.co.uk/news/display/08190
Seems a bit odd how Mclaren could let it fly if they knew the car was illegal.

Better article here,
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... l-details/
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

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FoxHound
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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Mclaren would have to prove it's illegality.
And by so doing incriminating themselves in spygate earlier than what had occured.
JET set

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Cuky
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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wasn't Ferrari asked by FIA to change their floor for Malaysian GP? Or floor deflection tests were tightened?

timbo
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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Nothing new. It was reported during spygate saga. The floor Ferrari used was discussed during spygate hearings.

donskar
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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Stepney is not exactly a trustworthy source . . .
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

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ringo
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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He wouldn't risk saying something that is not true. I'm sure if he did he would have been taken to court.
For Sure!!

bhall
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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This is very old news.
Autosport wrote: It seems no new season can take off in Formula One without new allegations of technical infringements or illegal devices - especially when the winning car is a Ferrari.

Last year it was the flexing wings; this time around, it's the F2007 floor that is being looked at, with some rivals suggesting the Italians are benefiting from improved aerodynamics as the floor moves at high speed.

McLaren specifically have raised concerns about the legality of some cars - though not naming Ferrari specifically - but a post-race FIA inspection has cleared all teams. Still, team boss Ron Dennis believes some rule clarification could be issued soon by the FIA.

"We will see how things are in two or three races," Dennis told speedtv.com. "There is a whole range of things that come to light in the first race and you go and you say what is legal, and what is not legal.

"Most teams are given that current race to enjoy the benefit of the doubt. I think there will be a rationalisation of some aspects of some cars that would close the gap if no one did anything.

"You look at people's cars, you are not always of the opinion that rule interpretation has been strictly adhered to, and you get into, 'Hold on a second, what are we allowed to do and what are we not allowed to do?' and that always takes place at the first event.

"So it takes a race or two to know what is or isn't permitted."

Last Sunday, after the race, McLaren's Martin Whitmarsh was seen having a heated discussion with Ferrari team principal Jean Todt, and while many believe the conversation was about Ferrari's floor, neither men would divulge what they were talking about.

Nevertheless, Whitmarsh made it clear his team must focus on their own performance.

"I went to congratulate Jean on the race weekend, and we had a discussion about a number of things," he told autosport.com.

"The reality is that we should concentrate on our own programme. That is what we are going to do. We are not going to get involved in any of the skirmishes going on currently in F1. We are trying to win the championship for ourselves."

But what is this new controversy all about?

Both Ferrari and BMW Sauber use a sprung device to mount the front section of floor on their cars. In Ferrari's case, at least, this part was already in use at the end of last season, as pointed out in autosport.com's 2006 Brazilian GP Technical Review.

All F1 cars must have a shadow plate to meet the stepped floor regulations. With the high-nosed F1 car, this results in the so-called splitter at the front of the floor.

Before 2000, when the front wings were allowed to be lower, teams tried to run the front of the car as low as possible to make the wing work better.

When even lower ride heights were stopped by the floor rubbing on the ground, the teams introduced flexible floors that would bend up, allowing the car to run lower.

The FIA stepped in and introduced a deflection test on the floor. This test uses the scrutineering rig in the first pit garage, where a hydraulic ram pushes the floor up from under the car and detects how much deflection is measured for a given load.

As with wings, if the part passes this deflection test it is deemed legal, even if the part may flex under a greater load.

Since 2001, front wings have been progressively raised and flexible floors have not been required to allow low ride heights.

But with the increased amount of ballast located in the floor, the FIA has allowed the teams a degree of freedom in mounting the exposed floor, so that it won't be damaged over kerbs. Despite this degree of flexibility allowed, floors are still subject to the deflection test.

The recent allegations, following the Australian Grand Prix, suggest the Ferrari floor could lift at high speed leading the diffuser to stall. This could either increase straight-line speed through a loss in drag, or improve the car's balance by reducing rear downforce.

To do this, the spring could allow the floor to pass the FIA test and still move when at higher speed.

Other teams mount their floor with a thin metal strut or cable, however these solutions are just as prone to flex at speed, as the support could bend under the pressure of (air) passing under the car.

The various teams' methods of mounting the floor have been known to the FIA scrutineers for some time. The Ferrari floor, for one, has passed scrutineering in every race it was used so far, at least since the Japanese Grand Prix last year.

However, as with the flexi-wings controversy last year, the team could still be required to make changes to their device, and the FIA may indeed issue a clarification outlining what is acceptable for mounting the floor - or even make changes to the deflection test.

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strad
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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Seems a bit odd how McLaren could let it fly if they knew the car was illegal.
In 1976 the Ferrari was technically illegal for a number of races and McLaren knew, but because it was found out so late that they would have excluded something like 5 or 7 race results and they felt there wasn't any real performance gain they let it slide. The oil coolers were in the wrong pace. Which I thought odd because McLaren had lost performance after their car was found illegal,,the silly width thing. In the end they found the lost performance when they moved the oil coolers back the 3/8ths off an inch they had moved them to make double sure the car was over legal. An insight to the airflow of an F1 car,,,moving the oil coolers 3/8ths of an inch had changed the air flow to the rear wing and totally screwed up a fantastic handling car.
I think after being stiffed over the slightly larger bulge in the Goodyear tires between 75 and 76,not to mention Ferraris other unsportman like actions during the 76 season, I would have stuck it to Ferrari.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Stradivarius
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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This isn't new, as many have pointed out already.

I just want to point out that McLaren also had an illegal car, according to the same argument used against Ferrari. This discussion regarding article 3.15 that requires that any part of the car influencing the aerodynamic performance must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car, (the article that Ferrari was accused of being in breach of) is from the transcript of the WMSC on September 13th 2007: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62552

It turned out that McLaren also needed to make modifications in order to meet the new requirements. In other words, if the Ferrari was illegal before the new requirements were introduced because they would have failed the new test, then so was the McLaren.
Nigel TOZZI: I cannot ask you about the brake system, unfortunately, not having seen your confidential witness statement.

Instead, I would like to ask you about the attack that you made on Mr Costa's statement, regarding the alleged illegality of the Ferrari car. I will take this shortly, because I do not think it is that relevant, but you make a big deal of it.

Mr Lowe, Article 315, to which you refer, of the Technical Regulations refers to aerodynamic influence: "with the exception of the cover described in Article 652 and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance, must, in compliance with rules regarding bodywork, be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car". Rigidly secured means having no degree of freedom. That is the part on which you suggest that the Ferrari car was in breach.

Patrick LOWE: Absolutely.

Nigel TOZZI: Do you agree with me that nothing is infinitely rigid?

Patrick LOWE: I don't know, Mr President, whether we want to explore the finer details of Article 3.15 today. It is a very complex topic; Charlie Whiting is very familiar with it.

Nigel TOZZI: Do you agree with me that nothing is infinitely rigid?

Patrick LOWE: I do agree, hence there are refinements to this in Article 3.17.

Nigel TOZZI: Exactly. The way the rigidity is tested.

Patrick LOWE: But -

Nigel TOZZI: Follow my questions, please!

Ian MILL: My witness is in the middle of an answer. My friend will wait for him to finish.

Nigel TOZZI: I will not be told by my friend what to do, but I am happy to let the witness finish.

Patrick LOWE: Article 3.15 is a very complex and old regulation. The refinements in Article 3.17 do not offer an exclusion, but rather practical guidance on some aspects of 3.15, as Charlie Whiting knows.

Nigel TOZZI: The test for rigidity is that provided for in 3.17-4, namely that the bodywork may deflect no more than 5 mm vertically, when a 500-Newton load is applied vertically to it, at a point which lies on the car centre line and 380 mm rearward of front-wheel centre line. That was the test, was it not?

Patrick LOWE: The test in 3.17 does not absolve one of full responsibility under 3.15.

Nigel TOZZI: That was the test, was it not?

Patrick LOWE: It is not an exclusive test, as to your compliance with 3.15.

Nigel TOZZI: That was the test, was it not?

Patrick LOWE: I have already answered that.

Nigel TOZZI: No, you have not. The answer is "yes", Mr Lowe, because I just read it from the regulation.

Patrick LOWE: That is your answer.

Nigel TOZZI: No, I read it from the regulation. And if you comply with the test, you are deemed to comply with 3.15.

Patrick LOWE: We could spend all day on Article 3.15, with all due respect.

Max MOSLEY: Could I intervene? The situation is as follows. Mr Tozzi means that it is completely wrong to describe Ferrari's system in Australia as illegal; it is one that passed the test as it then existed. You then quite rightly challenged this, and Charlie issued a reinterpretation of the test.

Patrick LOWE: I think the issue is being blurred again by Ferrari. There were two stages to the clarification from the FIA. In the first, it was said that "you will remove illegal devices". An illegal device is a mechanism with pivots, springs, and degrees of freedom that allows one to cynically exploit the behaviour required in 3.17, in contravention of 3.15. There was a further later clarification that changed the understanding for the test. Those are two separate issues. That is clear in my statements.

Max MOSLEY: I do not think that anyone on the World Council would seriously consider that the Ferrari device was illegal at the time, any more than the Renault mass damper before it was eliminated.

Nigel TOZZI: I am very grateful for that. It was important that this be clear, as these proceedings are apparently going to be made public. McLaren has repeatedly asserted, wrongly, that the Ferrari car was illegal, and it is appropriate that the world knows that it was not.

Patrick LOWE: I find that an extraordinary positioned: that something should be only illegal when it is clarified to be so.

Nigel TOZZI: Mr Lowe may find that extraordinary. You have said what you have said, so it is on the record.

Mr Lowe, what about the interesting question about the McLaren car? You tell us, in Paragraph 26, that when the testing was changed for the Spanish Grand Prix, the concept of McLaren's front floor attachment remained unchanged. Did the detail remain unchanged, Mr Lowe?

Patrick LOWE: The stiffness required by the test was increased.

Nigel TOZZI: You were using buckling stay, were you not?

Patrick LOWE: You clearly have not read my statement.

Nigel TOZZI: Oh, I have read it.

Patrick LOWE: That means you do not believe my statement, where I say that we did not use a buckling stay.

Nigel TOZZI: I have a series of photos - a very interesting series of photos - of your car, which show buckling stay, Mr Lowe.

Patrick LOWE: That is what you assume to be a buckling stay, but you fail to understand the behaviour it has.

Max MOSLEY: Can you help us, because I do not understand and perhaps others do not. If it is not a buckling stay, what is the proper description.

Patrick LOWE: It is a pre-buckled stay. It is already in the buckling mode before the start.

Buckling implies that it is stiff initially, then buckles. This means it would be very rigid at the start, then very soft, which would cynically exploit the behaviours in Article 3.17.

Nigel TOZZI: Your suggestion is that nothing on the pre-buckled stay was changed following the change of test by the FIA.

Patrick LOWE: I did not say that nothing was changed; I said that the concept remained the same. The characteristics were changed, because the stiffness requirement in 3.17 were changed.

Nigel TOZZI: Exactly. When I asked whether the detail had changed, I thought you said no.

Patrick LOWE: I said yes.

Nigel TOZZI: In other words, when the rule changed, it was not only Ferrari that had to change its car; McLaren did too.

Patrick LOWE: We changed the detail, as I stated a minute ago, but we did not change the concept.

Nigel TOZZI: It is the pot calling the kettle black.

Patrick LOWE: Those are your own words, and I think you know how you arrived at them.
Last edited by Stradivarius on 08 Nov 2013, 17:31, edited 1 time in total.

astracrazy
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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i love these sort of discussions in f1. play on words etc. what you say isn't what you mean and what you mean isn't what you say

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turbof1
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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That whole discussion at the 2007 wmsc hearing is just childish and just a big waste of money. Roughly the same situation presented itself with mclaren last year, where they abused the production error margin for the splitter in their advantage. Instead of dragging it idiotically to the wmsc, they were just told to modify.

Same should have happened in 2007: it was nothing more then ferrari using the rules in their advantage.
#AeroFrodo

oT v1
oT v1
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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Please tell me Tozzi isnt a barrister...
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SiLo
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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I believe he is. And it seems he wasn't a very good one.
Felipe Baby!

Manoah2u
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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since this 'news' broke cover just now because of the hearing in the 'ecclestone bribery' hearing, with bernie admitting he indeed payed quite some $$ to team owners back then [ Eddie Jordan, Alain Prost and more have admitted been payed to their personal bank accounts, not the team, to accept the concorde agreement ], it's not hard to connect the dots payment has been made to 'keep the mouth shut' or in Mcl's case that would mean, don't protest officially against the Illegality of the '07 Ferrari with which kimi won the GP.

Interestingly, that thus means, that, had Ferrari been disqualified from these results - then the end result would have been Lewis Hamilton being the F1 World Champion of 2007, instead of missing out with just 1 point, on his debut year.

What i'd like to know is, is it still NOW possible to take action against the 2007 championship over this cause? I'm thinking out loud regarding the 'crashgate' scandal for example, even though I don't recall anything being altered about the actual championship results of '08, in the end, several people involved were banned or restricted as a result. Could any legal action be taken against the Ferrari team regarding this because of the satement Stepney made? - Just curious.
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shelly
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Re: F2007 was illegal - Stepney

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I like this part


Patrick LOWE: ...an illegal device is a mechanism with pivots, springs, and degrees of freedom that allows one to cynically exploit the behaviour required in 3.17,...
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