Did F1 need a greener engine formula?

[xpensive]

I wonder what the "energy life cycle parity" is for the trow-away-after-the-race batteries used in F1 at the moment?

Throw-away?
Indeed, imagine a 4 MJ (4000 kWs/1.1 kWh) battery charged and discharged with 120 kW 200 times per hour and
compare it to an 85 kWh Tesla battery charged with 10 kW 200 times per year. That battery is toast after one race.

If store-discharge 1.1 kWh 5 times per lap for 50 laps, that's some 300 kWh or the equivalent of 30 liter of gasoline.

Think about it, how much energy and rare earth metals does it take to produce one of those batteries?

Not very green.

[Gaz.]

I wonder what the "energy life cycle parity" is for the trow-away-after-the-race batteries used in F1 at the moment?

Throw-away?
Indeed, imagine a 4 MJ (4000 kWs/1.1 kWh) battery charged and discharged with 120 kW 200 times per hour and
compare it to an 85 kWh Tesla battery charged with 10 kW 200 times per year. That battery is toast after one race.

If store-discharge 1.1 kWh 5 times per lap for 50 laps, that's some 300 kWh or the equivalent of 30 liter of gasoline.

Think about it, how much energy and rare earth metals does it take to produce one of those batteries?

Not very green.

I thought they only had 5 batteries for the season, and the 6th warrants a grid drop?

[diffuser]

The paddock largesse argument is rather thin. It offers no answer as to whether pursuing more efficiency in the engine formula is worthwhile, anymore than noting that the teams fly around the world to race.

Its shows pretty clearly where the sport's priorities lie. The "green" formula is purely to attract more commercial partners, end of story.[/quote][/quote]


Ok, Tim. U can follow the auto sport where they travel to races in sail boats and air balloons. See how many races they have?

BBC "This weekends race was cancelled do to the race being in the west and the wind blowing east! The only team to make it was Team largesse with their fuel powered planes!"

[xpensive]

...
I thought they only had 5 batteries for the season, and the 6th warrants a grid drop?

Then I believe most teams will take the drop rather than run with a lame MGU-K in the second and third race of the battery.

[diffuser]

This whole discussion is missing the point. I believe what we gain from the new power unit is a new way of doing things. A new technology, that the companies involved can take back and use in road cars (relevance). So we're redirecting the energy that F1 was using in creating vehicles with little hope of the technology making our vehicles more efficient, to pushing the envelope in that direction. If they keep reducing the max amount of fuel per race in future years as they have stated they will, then we truly have a chance of making a difference. What's 20 races a year compared to the millions of cars driving around the planet? A truly noble gesture from F1.

[bhall]

[...]
A truly noble gesture from F1.

Except that none of it is real, man. Not one drop of the technology employed, and subsequently heavily restricted, is new to the automotive world. It's F1 trading on so-called "green" technology in order to present the appearance of being "green."

While that certainly seems to help some fans and companies who might not be able to look at themselves in the mirror due to an inability to reconcile their involvement in an inherently wasteful venture, it does nothing to address the real problem. The only genuinely "green" solution for F1 is for it to cease operations. That would be a truly noble gesture. Otherwise, there's very little balance to be found.

It's just such a lack of will to honestly appreciate the scale of our situation that has continually been our Achilles' heel. We cannot seem to accept that we can't have it all.

Personally, I'm of the mind that the scales have tipped too far in the other direction to do anything about it now. So, we might as well have some fun on the way down. The earth, after all, will be just fine. We will have only hurt ourselves. (And animals. I feel worst for animals.)

[Tim.Wright]

Ok, Tim. U can follow the auto sport where they travel to races in sail boats and air balloons. See how many races they have?

BBC "This weekends race was cancelled do to the race being in the west and the wind blowing east! The only team to make it was Team largesse with their fuel powered planes!"

Just think about it. Beyond what is absolutely required F1 is a famously wasteful excercise.

[Sulman]

The green argument is a straw man. It's only a fringe benefit.

Efficiency is the point.

[xpensive]

...
A truly noble gesture from F1.

I'm fairly certain that it will be perceived that way by one or two with limited knowledge of Formula 1,
such as local pub-oracles and automotive board members.

[GitanesBlondes]

This whole discussion is missing the point. I believe what we gain from the new power unit is a new way of doing things. A new technology, that the companies involved can take back and use in road cars (relevance). So we're redirecting the energy that F1 was using in creating vehicles with little hope of the technology making our vehicles more efficient, to pushing the envelope in that direction. If they keep reducing the max amount of fuel per race in future years as they have stated they will, then we truly have a chance of making a difference. What's 20 races a year compared to the millions of cars driving around the planet? A truly noble gesture from F1.

F1 is not going to drive this one bit.

The consumer marketplace will drive technology as it always does...assuming it is cheap, and has a real purpose.

{removed by moderator. This will just start a flame war. The current semi-auto gearboxes have nothing to do with the current Green push in F1 - KERs, fuel restrictions, etc.]

Tangent belief - semi-auto transmissions are [moderator edit removed offensive comments. don't say things like this in public.]

[diffuser]

Ok, Tim. U can follow the auto sport where they travel to races in sail boats and air balloons. See how many races they have?

BBC "This weekends race was cancelled do to the race being in the west and the wind blowing east! The only team to make it was Team largesse with their fuel powered planes!"

Just think about it. Beyond what is absolutely required F1 is a famously wasteful excercise.

The same could be said about any sport...even the olympics...they all require people flying around the world. Skiing (downhill anyways) requires fuel powered lifts. Football requires the players fly to different cities. The players earn large salaries and purchase vehicles that burn large amounts of fuel.


I don't feel that strongly about this. I love the sport either way. I actually wish there was a way for the teams to show me more technical detail but what I'm saying is... I get that some of the "greening of F1" is about image and F1 isn't about to join Green Peace. They are taking risks, you see all the clamouring about the "new" sound of F1?? They could have stayed with the status quo. They are making an effort, it could real or symbolic, only time will tell. Its better than not making an effort at all.

[turbof1]

Keep it calm guys. No reason to start threatening with the manbags.

Infact, let me give you 2 instant etiquette make-overs on your posts

[bhall]

[...]
Its better than not making an effort at all.

Respectfully, no. I think this does more harm than good, because it further trivializes an issue that, for some, is of grave concern, and it leads to complacency when it comes to actually addressing that issue.

"It's better than not making an effort at all..." This is doing nothing at all.

[zeph]

Maybe I have been living under a rock, but nowhere have I seen F1 or its various branches promote or advertise the new formula as 'green'.

Only on the forums there is this assumption that it is all about putting an environmentally friendly face on the business.


Look at it this way: F1 needed change, and I think all the changes are sensible ones (although I hate the noses). This is all about increasing efficiency.
2014 cars burn up 100kg of fuel in 90 minutes'. 130 liters over 300km translates to about 2,3km to the liter.No one in his right mind would consider that 'green'. The general public is not that dumb.

[Sulman]

Maybe I have been living under a rock, but nowhere have I seen F1 or its various branches promote or advertise the new formula as 'green'.

Only on the forums there is this assumption that it is all about putting an environmentally friendly face on the business.


Look at it this way: F1 needed change, and I think all the changes are sensible ones (although I hate the noses). This is all about increasing efficiency.
2014 cars burn up 100kg of fuel in 90 minutes as 'green'. 130 liters over 300km translates to about 2,3km to the liter.No one in his right mind would consider that 'green'. The general public is not that dumb.

That's the point I've been trying to make. There may be philosophical benefits as a by-product, but by and large it's about efficiency.

The green argument has been advanced more by detractors as it is fairly easy to knock down.