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Juzh wrote:Why not just put down higher kerbs on corner entry and exit which would unsettle the car to the extent it's not worth it to cut and go wide?
India was the biggest problem, right? It's gone now anyway so it'll be less of a problem this year maybe.
Because this will penalise people who are forced wide, or tight just as much as people who voluntarily and illegally do it.
The same way grass or techpro barriers would. Not an issue imo. Driver would simply have to carve into their minds they can no longer floor it immediately after the apex. Good example ricciardo vs sutil (?) last year in suzuka. Ric simply floored it trough 130R knowing he could get away with it (crash wise) if he runs wide. Wouldn't be the case with either grass or high kerbs.
So you would think it reasonable for Grosjean to be out of the race at Hungary last year, after Massa forced him wide? Or for Hamilton to have knackered suspension at India in 2011 after Massa forced him off track?
beelsebob wrote:
So you would think it reasonable for Grosjean to be out of the race at Hungary last year, after Massa forced him wide? Or for Hamilton to have knackered suspension at India in 2011 after Massa forced him off track?
Why would Ham/mas incident be an issue? They were miles of the apex. Also you don't need absurdly high kerbs, just enough so that it unsettles the car, as I said before. Kerbs in turn 4 at bahrain are excellent. They do just what they're supposed to. Drivers know they'll be slower if they try to extend the corner and mount over them, but don't damage the car in the process should you be forced to go there by circumstance. Alo vs Perez 2013. http://youtu.be/Ly4r_iZrGck?t=3m47s
Same for gro/massa. Drivers would just have to be more lenient with each other. IMO forcing other driver off the track should be punished more than it currently is.
beelsebob wrote:
So you would think it reasonable for Grosjean to be out of the race at Hungary last year, after Massa forced him wide? Or for Hamilton to have knackered suspension at India in 2011 after Massa forced him off track?
Why would Ham/mas incident be an issue? They were miles of the apex. Also you don't need absurdly high kerbs, just enough so that it unsettles the car, as I said before. Kerbs in turn 4 at bahrain are excellent. They do just what they're supposed to. Drivers know they'll be slower if they try to extend the corner and mount over them, but don't damage the car in the process should you be forced to go there by circumstance. Alo vs Perez 2013. http://youtu.be/Ly4r_iZrGck?t=3m47s
Same for gro/massa. Drivers would just have to be more lenient with each other. IMO forcing other driver off the track should be punished more than it currently is.
Right, which is what I'm getting at... I agree that forcing other drivers off track is a bigger issue currently than drivers voluntarily exceeding the track boundaries. Because of that, I don't think we need stiffer, and instantaneous, unrevokable punishment for exceeding the track boundaries, because I feel it would unfairly punish drivers who were forced wide.
I just wish the FIA would actually punish pushing people off the track.
MadMatt wrote:Raising curbs will never happen because the FIA is afraid of the cars to fly or start rolling.
And also because high curbs make motorbike racing impossible at that circuit.
It's nice to see someone remember that the tracks are used by motorcycles also,
as a former bike racer the last thing I would have wanted is high curbs and/or deep grooves cut in them. it's bad enough that half the gravel traps have been paved over, add to that, the high curbs and you just made falling off the bike alot more dangerous
This has been hashed over so much. I have called for kerbs and other measures but they aren't needed.
What is needed is a nice white line and stewards that are willing to make the uncomfortable and often controversial call.
MAKE them drive properly if they won't do it on their own. Make the call throw the black flag, They'll shape up.
And this goes all the way down to Karts. They've been rewarded rather than punished over most of their careers.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss
Perfect, just because Whiting said so this turned into kerbs and grass discussion when they're not gaining anything by going off against all the evidence to the contrary. What kind of reasonable kerbs would have prevented Alonso - Ricciardo? He ended up in hospital with back problems after jumping up and down on several of them and still got out in front. How much time did RG gain by going off in Hungary. I bet he lost several tenths - so no gain-no penalty according to C. Whiting?
The thing is they're trying to muddy up not clear the issue. Especially by mixing "tracks and corners are different" (yes we know that) with application of existing track limit and gaining advantage rules - complete mess in 2013. Add race-qualifying distinction and you have even more muddying.
There's no way you can apply the same rules uniformly and give "clear" penalty for Gros-Mass, tell Hulk to give his place back in Singapore and let Alonso (or Hulk against Bottas) keep position and advantage without penalty in Abu Dhabi. No way. Of course there are not controversial/different situation when driver is forced and can keep the advantage but the latter two weren't one of them, not even close (first one was).
It's not only about track limits, crashing into drivers from behind was the same mess. Di Resta/Raikkonen Monza against Gutierrez/Maldonado earlier. Yellow flags (Rosberg Silverstone) - similar. Check this out (K.M.): "While the telemetry was inconclusive due to very different track conditions between laps, the stewards were satisfied from the video and the driver’s explanation that he was sufficiently slow and under control" - "sufficiently", brilliant. This "seems" fine as real life application of rules but means we can do whatever we want based on nothing. BTW What stopped them from not penalising Hulkenberg in Brazil 2012 based on that (another area - wet races)? People missed breaking points and went off on their own there.
And people dissect Ricciardo in circular arguments for 100th time when dozens of much more controversial decisions happen all the time.
I think it is a problem in formula 1 that the rules are not clear. We can never know, by reading the rules, what will be the reaction when something happens on the track. There is always room for different opinions and some times that means the race is finaly decided after it's over, by a jury who exercises judgement after listening to the driver's explainations.
This makes me think about the 1995 world championship of athletics, where the sprinter Gwen Torrence was disqualified from the 200 m final for stepping on the white line in the turn. She finished first and thought she was world champion, but the pictures showed that her left foot had touched the white line by a couple of inches once or twice. And she was excluded. The beauty of this, in my opinion, is that the rules are crystal clear and there was no doubt about how to handle the situation. There wasn't a "jury" looking at videos trying to evaluated whether or not she had gained an advantage. It is obvious that her margin of 0.35 s to Merlene Ottey in 2nd was a lot bigger than what she could have gained by stepping on the line. At that speed, 0.35 s corresponds to about 3.5 meters, but she only gained a few centimeters at most. So excluding her from the race would seem a bit harsh, maybe. Nevertheless, the rules are absolute and then it's also much easier to accept the decision, simply because it is not a matter of judgement.
I realize of course that in formula 1, you have additional challenges because one driver can be forced off track by another and then maybe doesn't deserve a penalty. But in Monaco it is different. It may be your own fault, or you may be forced off track, the result is the same, as in Monaco off track is the same as into the wall and your race is over. But as far as I can tell, this is not a problem in Monaco. They actually have the same rule at the pit exit (or at least they did, maybe it has changed). If you cross the white line when exiting the pit, you will get a penalty. And then it's not a question of whether all the wheels crossed the line. I remember Schumacher was handed a penalty for touching the line just by a few centimeters. I think it was in France in 2002, when he secured the title. I remember him saying that he thought it was a matter of millimeters rather than centimeters, but nevertheless he made no excuses and fully accepted the decision. And the reason was of course that there was no doubt, as that rule was crystal clear.
There is usually a white line on each side of the track. Why can't this line be continuous, and the rules say that you are never allowed to touch this line what so ever? The reason this is not a problem in Monaco is of course that the drivers don't want to risk ending the race right away and they also know that if they try to force another driver, he won't yield, simply because he can't. This should be the case at all times. The reason we see this problem today is partly because one driver knows that if he forces another driver, there is a good chance he will yield and go off track to avoid a collision. Different and very clear rules could end this right away. And if a driver should force another, he could be disqualified.
The rules already say that you must leave at least one car's width to the edge of the track if you have someone next to you or partially up on your side. Maybe there should be an extra line exactly one car's width inside the one that marks the edge of the track, on both sides of the track, to clearly show where you can go and where you can't go if you have another car next to you. Then it would be very easy for the driver to comply with the rules and it would be very easy to hand him a penalty if he doesn't. It would also be very easy to excuse a driver for leaving the track, if it is a result of another driver crossing the one car's width -line.
Stradivarius wrote:I realize of course that in formula 1, you have additional challenges because one driver can be forced off track by another and then maybe doesn't deserve a penalty. But in Monaco it is different. It may be your own fault, or you may be forced off track, the result is the same, as in Monaco off track is the same as into the wall and your race is over. But as far as I can tell, this is not a problem in Monaco.
Except it very much is a problem in Monaco. Just last year, we had Perez forced into the barriers on the entry to the chicaine by Raikkonen, it absolutely was a problem that they couldn't go back and reasonably punish the perpetrator.
Stradivarius wrote:I realize of course that in formula 1, you have additional challenges because one driver can be forced off track by another and then maybe doesn't deserve a penalty. But in Monaco it is different. It may be your own fault, or you may be forced off track, the result is the same, as in Monaco off track is the same as into the wall and your race is over. But as far as I can tell, this is not a problem in Monaco.
Except it very much is a problem in Monaco. Just last year, we had Perez forced into the barriers on the entry to the chicaine by Raikkonen, it absolutely was a problem that they couldn't go back and reasonably punish the perpetrator.
I didn't say it never happened. Of course, these things may still happen anywhere. Just like it happened in 1995 when Gwen Torrence stepped on the line despite the clear rules and the inevitable consequences.
My point is that this usually happens in places where the consequences are less obvious. So the aim should be to make it more obvious. It is so much easier to deal with a rule concerning whether or not a line was crossed (or touched) than to deal with judgements based on conversations with the drivers and interpretations of telemetry and speculation of intentions. And then the decisions will be a lot easier to accept as well.
Stradivarius wrote:I realize of course that in formula 1, you have additional challenges because one driver can be forced off track by another and then maybe doesn't deserve a penalty. But in Monaco it is different. It may be your own fault, or you may be forced off track, the result is the same, as in Monaco off track is the same as into the wall and your race is over. But as far as I can tell, this is not a problem in Monaco.
Except it very much is a problem in Monaco. Just last year, we had Perez forced into the barriers on the entry to the chicaine by Raikkonen, it absolutely was a problem that they couldn't go back and reasonably punish the perpetrator.
I didn't say it never happened. Of course, these things may still happen anywhere. Just like it happened in 1995 when Gwen Torrence stepped on the line despite the clear rules and the inevitable consequences.
My point is that this usually happens in places where the consequences are less obvious. So the aim should be to make it more obvious.
Okay, I can go with making it more obvious. But if the cost of that is that people breaking no rules are penalised with retirement, I think it goes too far.
It is so much easier to deal with a rule concerning whether or not a line was crossed (or touched) than to deal with judgements based on conversations with the drivers and interpretations of telemetry and speculation of intentions. And then the decisions will be a lot easier to accept as well.
Not really, no, it will become entirely "legitimate" to push another driver off the circuit, because you'll be safe in the knowledge that they will get punished, not you.
Stradivarius' idea, while being a great simplification and end-all discussions solution, cannot work 1 to 1 in motorsport, for the simple reason which beelsebob mentioned (being forced off the track), which I would imagine would have the same consequences in a track meet - i.e. if the runner next to you falls and knocks you out of your lane, you wouldn't be disqualified. Oh, and the fact that everyone is using one lane, which increases the difficulty of not being in the same place at the same time.
Other than fencing in the entire usable track surface (like Monaco), only the officials can decide right from wrong in these excursions "off" the track, due to the huge asphalt surfaces needed for "safety", which I personally only see as a way to keep more drivers in the races longer to make the teams and TV audience happy.
For me: four wheels over = drive through, if the sector time was within 5% of the personal best. Same penalty for forcing someone over the paint while passing. The drivers should be happy with that - it could have been a wall instead of paint...
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Bear in mind that I proposed another line to be introduced on each side of the track, one car's width away from the edge of the track to clearly show how far you can go when you are battling with someone else. Some of my arguments are based on this idea. These lines would serve the simple purpose of determining whether a driver was forced off the track or not. If two cars are driving side by side, the rules state that they must leave each other room, at least one car's width from the edge of the track. If this one car's width was marked clearly, the driver on the outside would never have any reason to leave the track unless the other driver moved accross that line, which would be very easy to spot for the stewards looking at the videos. They would then be able to conclude that one driver forced the other off the track and give him a penalty, while concluding that the driver leaving the track did not do so without a good reason and let him be excused. On the other hand, if a driver leaves the track while being given enough room to stay on track, i.e. the other driver is not crossing the one car's width line, he can easily be penalised for leaving the track for no good reason.
