What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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beelsebob
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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sennaf1god.94 wrote:
bhall wrote:He's not necessarily wrong. It's just that a duration of 16.75s/lap assumes ERS release at max power. However, there's nothing to stop a team from using half the energy for twice as long.
Well, then why not using the same amount of ERS time as a V6 F1 engine (33,33 sec) just for a fair comparison...?

LMP1: 600+241=841bhp (for flat out 4WD racing)

F1: 600+160=760bhp (for lifting & coasting 2WD racing)

So... the main questions will remain here:

Will the higher torque output compensate LMP1´s weight deficit?
Can prototypes beat F1´s top speed on the main straights even with DRS activated?
Is Wurz right and LMP1s generate more downforce... and so will they beat F1´s at Becketts?
Is 4WD really a factor in the medium-slow corners specially those from sector 2?
Will F1 Blend?

8)
The estimates for F1 are well out here. Renault claim to have 610 bhp, but still to be 80-90bhp short of Mercedes. It's entirely reasonable to assume that Merc have 860bhp for 33 seconds a lap, and 700bhp for the rest of the lap.

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sennaf1god.94
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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beelsebob wrote:
sennaf1god.94 wrote:
bhall wrote:He's not necessarily wrong. It's just that a duration of 16.75s/lap assumes ERS release at max power. However, there's nothing to stop a team from using half the energy for twice as long.
Well, then why not using the same amount of ERS time as a V6 F1 engine (33,33 sec) just for a fair comparison...?

LMP1: 600+241=841bhp (for flat out 4WD racing)

F1: 600+160=760bhp (for lifting & coasting 2WD racing)

So... the main questions will remain here:

Will the higher torque output compensate LMP1´s weight deficit?
Can prototypes beat F1´s top speed on the main straights even with DRS activated?
Is Wurz right and LMP1s generate more downforce... and so will they beat F1´s at Becketts?
Is 4WD really a factor in the medium-slow corners specially those from sector 2?
Will F1 Blend?

8)
The estimates for F1 are well out here. Renault claim to have 610 bhp, but still to be 80-90bhp short of Mercedes. It's entirely reasonable to assume that Merc have 860bhp for 33 seconds a lap, and 700bhp for the rest of the lap.
The new 2014 Mercedes F1 engine makes "about 580" horsepower, Niki Lauda told Austrian TV
I trust more Lauda´s figure than Toyota´s 520PS for their 3.7litre petrol engine...

Even if we know they both lie.
I don't know driving in another way which isn't risky. Each one has to improve himself. Each driver has its limit. My limit is a little bit further than other's.

Ayrton Senna da Silva

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scuderiafan
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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The fact that we're even comparing the performance of these cars says a lot about the state of motor racing today. Almost like back in the eighties with Group C and the turbo F1 cars of the day?
"You're so angry that you throw your gloves down, and the worst part is; you have to pick them up again." - Steve Matchett

Patiently waiting...

Agerasia
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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Plus one has significantly more drag than the other.
"badically pressuring rosnerg " Ringo 05/10/2014

gixxer_drew
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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scuderiafan wrote:The fact that we're even comparing the performance of these cars says a lot about the state of motor racing today. Almost like back in the eighties with Group C and the turbo F1 cars of the day?
P1 cars have with much smaller amounts of downforce these days compared to Group C.

Let's see if this holds out though, over the course of a season F1 cars develop significantly and there was a lot to contend with on the new cars that was not well tested.

bhall
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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sennaf1god.94 wrote:[...]

Will the higher torque output compensate LMP1´s weight deficit?
Can prototypes beat F1´s top speed on the main straights even with DRS activated?
Is Wurz right and LMP1s generate more downforce... and so will they beat F1´s at Becketts?
Is 4WD really a factor in the medium-slow corners specially those from sector 2?
Will F1 Blend?

8)
In and of itself, torque is meaningless. It's power that moves cars.

That said, I have little doubt in my mind that LMP1 is certainly capable of higher straight-line speeds, because of higher power output, better traction, and presumably lower drag (closed cockpit/wheels). LMP1's higher weight has only a negligible effect on this aspect of performance. At speeds over ~160km/h, aerodynamic drag is a far bigger obstacle than weight.

Through turns, however, F1's lower weight will likely make for faster speeds compared to LMP1, even if the latter does have more downforce overall. As Lycoming said, a higher downforce-to-weight ratio trumps higher total downforce.

What's interesting is Wurz's claim that LMP1 has more downforce in low-downforce trim than F1 has in high-downforce trim. Is it possible then that in high-downforce trim LMP1 has enough to beat F1 through twisty bits? I dunno.

(That this is even up for discussion makes me a little sad, because F1 is supposed to be all sorts of faster than anything else.)

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Pierce89
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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If F1 cars were simply running on Michelins, that would make enogh difference that this conversation would never have happened.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

beelsebob
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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Ultimately, the unfortunate fact is that there's a maximum safe speed at which we can whiz humans around a race track. There's also a maximum speed at which any of the whizzing is in any way interesting.

Formula 1 hit that speed a good 3 decades ago. Now the top end of other sports are also hitting that speed, and the result is that lots of car racing is the same speed. There's very little that can be done to make F1 extraordinary from this point on. We'll just have to accept that.

Sombrero
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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And anyway the IndyCar series are the fastest way around with their ovals racing...

Cold Fussion
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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The LMP1 cars will be closer to 500 hp rather than 600.

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FrukostScones
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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so are they already faster today in Silverstone...
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

BanMeToo
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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Cold Fussion wrote:The LMP1 cars will be closer to 500 hp rather than 600.
That's awfully low man, I don't think so.

munudeges
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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beelsebob wrote:Ultimately, the unfortunate fact is that there's a maximum safe speed...There's also a maximum speed at which any of the whizzing is in any way interesting....Formula 1 hit that speed a good 3 decades ago....Now the top end of other sports are also hitting that speed, and the result is that lots of car racing is the same speed.
Pray tell, what would this 'speed' be exactly? It's mentioned often enough.

Phillyred
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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Slightly off topic, but does anyone know if there are any sites streaming this live (WEC 2014 Silverstone)? I usually use firstrowsports, but no such luck.
Last edited by Phillyred on 18 Apr 2014, 21:01, edited 1 time in total.

Lycoming
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Re: What if? F1 vs LMP1 2014

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Well, they're pretty keen on keeping laptimes around Sarthe in the mid 3:20s. Since 2011, that's pretty much where they've been.