If Vettel performs poorly this year... what will that mean?

[JimClarkFan]

I'm worried because when a thread like this is made sometimes they can spiral into mayhem, and I don't want to be accused of making a thread to bait people into arguing because that is not my intention

Here goes though....

Watch this first:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xg6xieQFdg[/youtube]
Article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/25035783

I'm sure most of you have seen the video, however when asked Alonso says this about Vettel when asked about his achievements and how good he is:

"Time will tell us, there are many years [to go in his career]. He is 26 years old, so when he will have a car like the others, if he wins, he will have a great recognition and be one of the legends in F1. When one day he has a car like the others and he is fourth, fifth, seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take these four titles even in a worse manner than they are doing now. So there are interesting times for Sebastian coming."


How far do you agree with this statement? In that if Vettel performs below expectations this year, or lets say Daniel somehow beats him come the end of the season, what will that mean regarding YOUR perception of Seb and his standing when compared to the all time great drivers.

[QinetiQ]

To me, he's already cracking under the pressure. Ricciardo has been whipping the floor clean with him so far. That said, it's only been 3 races and at the end of the day, you don't become a world champion by accident let alone do it 4 times in a row. The kid has talent I'm just not sure it's as big as people make it out to be. I, for one, am happy there's finally somebody in the same kind of machinery that is able to challenge him. If he pulls a "Fernando Alonso" as I like to call it, and manages to finish 1 point behind the Championship leader at the end of the season in a highly inferior machinery, he'll have my full respect.

[Gaz.]

I'm worried because when a thread like this is made sometimes they can spiral into mayhem...

Sometimes? I admire your optimism as it's really interesting to see how some team mate battles unfold over the course of the season, especially in teams where parity appears evident.

[rich1701]

He's only beaten Sebastian Bourdais and Mark Webber in formula 1.

[zeph]

Vettel IS a great driver, you don't win four titles on superior machinery alone. People underestimate Mark Webber, but don't forget he came to within an inch of beating Vettel (and Alonso) to the WDC in 2010.

It is clear, however, that Vettel has more difficulty adjusting to the new formula than Ricciardo. The same goes for Raikkonen.


But as a true fan, I'd say that Alonso is a cut above the rest. Hamilton may have the raw pace, but I don't see him dragging a donkey cart around and finish runner-up in the championship like Alonso has in the last few seasons.

[gray41]

He'd still be a 4xWDC but he might not be taken as the best ever like some would make out.

This season has shown that its pretty much all on the car, put Seb in Lewis' Mercedes and I'm pretty sure he'd have a similar amount of points.

[ChrisM40]

It wouldn't really change much in my eyes.

He is a very good driver, you dont get to be 4 times champion unless you are. However his winning cars and years were a perfect storm for him. The best car, the right rules, a team totally behind him, teams concentrating on the 2014 season and a measure of luck turned him from a top 6 driver into a champion. Would he have been champion in a Ferrari or McLaren? Or in years when the rules didnt hinder hard racers? Maybe, but i suspect not.

[turbof1]

Normally we close such threads right away. Not that the intent is bad, but it always, we never had a similar thread ending up otherwise, attracts badmouthing, bickering and fanboyism. I'm going to make an exception; the most extreme members on this front are currently sitting out a ban, so here's to hoping we can have actually a civil conversation

HOWEVER: no bickering, no fanboyism, no idiocity. If I even sense it's going the wrong way I'll be locking this up inmediately. So please be civil and polite. Be constructive, objective and preferable neutral in your argumentation.

Just looking from a personal view, I'd like to adress some things first:
-Vettel or Ricciardo will not take the title this year. The performance gap between the red bull and the mercedes is too big. Also on the reliability front mercedes has the edge; Kiril posted somewhere a table with used PU components. Red Bull already started swapping parts, while Mercedes still have their first ones (save the engine of hamilton, which will be used again btw). So Vettel will not take a 5th title this year.

-Ricciardo seems to have the edge on Vettel in the first races. Looking back at previous years were red bull wasn't as dominant, this has similarities. In 2009, 2010 and 2012 Webber was much closer to Vettel then 2011 and 2013. What I am trying to say is that Vettel looks to have an edge when he has a "perfect" car, but when the car is struggling, he struggles as much as his teammate, giving that teammate the chance to outbeat Vettel.

-Ricciardo might surprisingly began his adventure at red bull without pressure. If he gets beaten by Vettel, he gets beaten by a 4x champion. Nothing abnormal. People don't have big expectations yet of him. He can live into the race weekends without pressure. Vettel has that pressure now on him to show how he can handle this new era. I think that pressure mostly comes from himself.

-Ricciardo is very good driver. Vettel is outstanding; nothing changes on that front. I think the conclusion should be is that Ricciardo is very fast, consistent driver. From a driver standpoint up until now even error free this season.

-Mostly, I personally feel this isn't a year to judge. For Vettel this is a transition year. He'll need to learn how to cope with NOT winning. I also have to say Vettel is a straight-up teamplayer. He proved that in Bahrain by letting Ricciardo pass. That's very galantly and humble for a 4x champ. It also might show Webber wasn't the teamplayer he was hyped to.

[Juzh]

IF he gets outperformed over the course of season on pure merit, then we might have to ask ourselves a different question: How good is Ricciardo?

[beelsebob]

IF he gets outperformed over the course of season on pure merit, then we might have to ask ourselves a different question: How good is Ricciardo?

No, I don't think that's the question that needs to be asked at all. Ricciardo never really showed himself to be significantly better than his team mate at Toro Rosso (better yes, but not significantly better). There's no good argument to be made that Ricciardo is in any way the second coming of Christ. Instead, the question that should be asked if Ricciardo manages to beat Vettel is simply "wow, how good were those RedBulls, and how bad had webber got?"

[dobbster71]

Vettel IS a great driver, you don't win four titles on superior machinery alone. People underestimate Mark Webber, but don't forget he came to within an inch of beating Vettel (and Alonso) to the WDC in 2010.

It is clear, however, that Vettel has more difficulty adjusting to the new formula than Ricciardo. The same goes for Raikkonen.


But as a true fan, I'd say that Alonso is a cut above the rest. Hamilton may have the raw pace, but I don't see him dragging a donkey cart around and finish runner-up in the championship like Alonso has in the last few seasons.

I'm not sure that you can compare Vettel with Raikkonen this season. Red Bull know how Vettel likes his car to feel & its set-up. I would have thought that he would have had quite an influence during the design of the RB10.
Raikkonen, on the other hand, is at a new team & is clearly in the early stages of building a rapport with his new engineers. Also, I would suspect that the foibles of the pullrod suspension are new to him.

To answer the question of the OP, if Vettel performs poorly this year he will have a poor season! I doubt that his position within the RB team would be in doubt.
What cannot be overlooked is the great way in which Ricciardo has performed so far. Vettel is up on a pedestal at Red Bull & Ricciardo is shaking the foundations rather well so far.

[beelsebob]

I'm not sure that you can compare Vettel with Raikkonen this season. Red Bull know how Vettel likes his car to feel & its set-up. I would have thought that he would have had quite an influence during the design of the RB10.
Raikkonen, on the other hand, is at a new team & is clearly in the early stages of building a rapport with his new engineers. Also, I would suspect that the foibles of the pullrod suspension are new to him.

Raikkonen won the World Drivers Championship at his current team. They sure as hell know how he likes his car!

[Juzh]

IF he gets outperformed over the course of season on pure merit, then we might have to ask ourselves a different question: How good is Ricciardo?

No, I don't think that's the question that needs to be asked at all. Ricciardo never really showed himself to be significantly better than his team mate at Toro Rosso (better yes, but not significantly better). There's no good argument to be made that Ricciardo is in any way the second coming of christ. Instead, the question that should be asked if Ricciardo manages to beat Vettel is simply "wow, how good were those RedBulls, and how bad had webber got?"

Drivers develop and become better you know.

[Phillyred]

If Vettel finishes behind his teammate then I think that alone will speak for itself. If he finishes the season in 3rd behind the now dominant Mercedes drivers then I would still say he is a driver "worthy" of his accomplishments. A Vettel vs Alonso fight behind the Mercs would be very telling as well if their machinery's pace is similar. Either way I don't think we can dismiss what Vettel has accomplished in such a short amount of time esp. at a young age. Having the fastest car doesn't always guarantee 1st. He "mentally" drove those cars to many victories and pole positions.

[beelsebob]

Honestly, I think this season will say more about his mental strength than any season before. He's been sounding decidedly shaken recently. Him standing up and saying "yep, Ricciardo's beating me fair and square at the moment and I've got to fix that" is the first sign to me that he's beginning to get his brain in the right place to launch a counter attack.