F1 Performance: is it the car, is it the driver?

[Waywardism]

I don't remember anyone saying he is average (or 'shite' as someone said earlier). The common consensus seems to be that yes he's a very good F1 driver but not one of the greats as his 4x WDC might suggest, and that he was flattered by the car he had.

I've had that impression of him for years, nothing I'm seeing so far this season is surprising me.

[Cam]

I do feel sorry for Vettel, it is just not funny anymore..
But on the other hand, I am glad that Schumacher's 5 WDC titels in a row record will stay with him for the near foreseeable future.

Yeah, because the car had nothing to do with that.

[George-Jung]

I do feel sorry for Vettel, it is just not funny anymore..
But on the other hand, I am glad that Schumacher's 5 WDC titels in a row record will stay with him for the near foreseeable future.

Yeah, because the car had nothing to do with that.

Of course the car had something to do with that, but I was just talking about Schumi's record..

[Cam]

I know. It's ridiculous how the memory selectively chooses what is "great".

Here's some examples:
• Alonso (the "best" driver in F1) - can't win a WDC in a Ferrari.
• Webber (highly regarded) - can't win a WDC in the best F1 cars (RB6, 7, 8 & 9).
• Button (average at best) - wins a WDC in a trick car, can't get close before or since.

A WDC is the perfect combination of everything. Ever single thing has to be 'perfect' for it to happen. Now do that 4 times straight. It's freakish. Yes the car played a part, but someone had to steer it cleanly lap after lap for 4 years. The pressure, the hype, the expectations. Having to deal with that and still get results is nothing short of 'great'.

Hate the man. Yes. Worship the car. Yes. But the combination was nothing short of brilliance. To dismiss that simply misses what F1 is - really hard to win.

[turbof1]

I know. It's ridiculous how the memory selectively chooses what is "great".

Here's some examples:
• Alonso (the "best" driver in F1) - can't win a WDC in a Ferrari.
• Webber (highly regarded) - can't win a WDC in the best F1 cars (RB6, 7, 8 & 9).
• Button (average at best) - wins a WDC in a trick car, can't get close before or since.

A WDC is the perfect combination of everything. Ever single thing has to be 'perfect' for it to happen. Now do that 4 times straight. It's freakish. Yes the car played a part, but someone had to steer it cleanly lap after lap for 4 years. The pressure, the hype, the expectations. Having to deal with that and still get results is nothing short of 'great'.

Hate the man. Yes. Worship the car. Yes. But the combination was nothing short of brilliance. To dismiss that simply misses what F1 is - really hard to win.

Well someone clearly needed some upvotes and had to pull out a very inspired post! Well done. I agree that, aside all the vettel vs. Ricciardio mortal combat talk, that what Vettel did was a huge effort.

Also any talk about driving a car to it's breaking point surely can't be taken serious? Not one driver will start the race while thinking "I need to underdrive my engine, this will surely keep me from having any breakdowns". It doesn't work that way; a driving style doesn't or shouldn't influence reliability, and vice versa. Turning down engine power at the end of the race, more coast and lifting at the end of the race or shifting differently: yes of course, but adapting your driving style just because you get hit by mechanical issues is just silly. Especially since Vettel's issues were manifesting fairly in the races.

[JimClarkFan]

There is a difference in the comparison between Schumacher and Vettel. Schumacher was already considered the best driver on the grid by 1999, before he went on to win his 5 straight WDCs.

Vettel came from winning one race, to a car which was winning the world championship 4 years straight at a relative canter.

The difference is that Schumacher was already known to be a great, whereas Vettel was a relative nobody - thus the lingering doubt as to whether or not he really is an all time great or if it was the car.

The same could have been said of Alonso when he started winning his WDC - except two things are different, he ended Schumachers reign, and during the Vettel years, he proved that he could do what nobody else on the grid could, which was get close to Vettel in a car that was quite a bit of it's pace.

Vettel is a now a 4x WDC, everyone is waiting to see if he is capable of emulating Schumacher, Alonso and Senna have done with cars not seemingly capable of challenging for the title.

We wait.

[FoxHound]

I do feel sorry for Vettel, it is just not funny anymore..
But on the other hand, I am glad that Schumacher's 5 WDC titels in a row record will stay with him for the near foreseeable future.

Yeah, because the car had nothing to do with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autosport_ ... f_the_Year

4 years in a row he has a car that won the Autosport race car of the year.

You instantly demean Schumacher's record, whilst trying to over value Vettel's when in Vettel's 6 years as a Formula driver he has been recipient of a "race car of the year" for 4 of those 6 seasons.
I can't see why you wouldn't judge them equally.

[krisfx]

There is a difference in the comparison between Schumacher and Vettel. Schumacher was already considered the best driver on the grid by 1999, before he went on to win his 5 straight WDCs.

Vettel came from winning one race, to a car which was winning the world championship 4 years straight at a relative canter.

The difference is that Schumacher was already known to be a great, whereas Vettel was a relative nobody - thus the lingering doubt as to whether or not he really is an all time great or if it was the car.

The same could have been said of Alonso when he started winning his WDC - except two things are different, he ended Schumachers reign, and during the Vettel years, he proved that he could do what nobody else on the grid could, which was get close to Vettel in a car that was quite a bit of it's pace.

Vettel is a now a 4x WDC, everyone is waiting to see if he is capable of emulating Schumacher, Alonso and Senna have done with cars not seemingly capable of challenging for the title.

We wait.

I agree with this, although I think Alonso proved his class when he put the minardi 2.6 seconds clear of his team mate in Australia haha

[Cam]

I do feel sorry for Vettel, it is just not funny anymore..
But on the other hand, I am glad that Schumacher's 5 WDC titels in a row record will stay with him for the near foreseeable future.

Yeah, because the car had nothing to do with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autosport_ ... f_the_Year

4 years in a row he has a car that won the Autosport race car of the year.

You instantly demean Schumacher's record, whilst trying to over value Vettel's when in Vettel's 6 years as a Formula driver he has been recipient of a "race car of the year" for 4 of those 6 seasons.
I can't see why you wouldn't judge them equally.

I don't diminish Shumacher's results. I draw parallels. In 2004 he smashed everyone. In 2005 he was soundly beaten. Rule changes. That's all. The combination of perfection required came from Renault, not Ferrari. Does this mean Shumacher was overrated because he can only win in a dominate car? No. Of course not.

[SpecialCircumstances]

Vettel is a now a 4x WDC, everyone is waiting to see if he is capable of emulating Schumacher, Alonso and Senna have done with cars not seemingly capable of challenging for the title.

We wait.

Senna is the only one who did incredible things in a car that was clearly not the best.

I rate Alonso very highly but could you actually explain what things Alonso has done in a car "not seemingly capable of challenging for the title" that Vettel has not / could not have done? Alonso is in a car clearly not capable of the title right now and he's putting the car exactly where it belongs. Vettel won a race in a Toro Rosso, but I'm sure that will be dismissed with all the usual excuses.

And to be clear, I am not looking to devalue Alonso at all. And yes, he maximised his results and got the best out of the Ferrari as you would expect a driver of his caliber to do. I just don't like this implying that Vettel will need to do something special this year (define?) and that he needs to prove himself. I don't like these claims because they are vague and they usually lead to changing goalposts and analogies Vettel can never measure up to.

There are a lot of people (not saying you are one) that are hell bent on never admitting Vettel could possibly be on the level of their favourite drivers.

[SpecialCircumstances]

Why not look at MSC's record in it's entirety? He is revered as one of the greatest for good reason.
In 1996 he won 3 times in a dog of a Ferrari. In 1997 he pushed the Newey penned Williams right down to the final race....literally . In a car not anywhere near the equal of the Newey penned Williams.
In 1998 he pushed Hakkinen to the last race, despite not having a Newey penned McLaren.
His Benenton WDC's where even more impressive for me. Some absolute insane drives by him, which was in the face of better machinery.

There is no parrellel to Vettel.

Vettel is the benefactor of Newey Genius. This is undeniable.
And Seb uses it very well. Again, undeniable.

I will make a football comparison so as you can see more clearly what my view is. Ruud Van Nistelrooy scored a ton of goals for Manchester United. His European record was immense. He scored something like 60 goals at the same or higher ratio than Messi and Ronaldo.
He was an accumulator of goals. But he would be near anonymous when the team didn't perform.

Now you look at Messi or Ronaldo. When those chips are down, these guys come up with the goods more often than not. They create something, by force of will, skill, or by luck or whatever.....something happens.
By looking at how things have been won, accounting for all the factors, Ronaldo and Messi are on a completely different planet to Mr Van Nistelrooy. And that is not a slight on the guy as his record was fantastic.

Similarly, Vettel has a superior record to Senna. He has a better record than any of his current contemporaries.
Yet why is he not revered as highly as Alonso, or Hamilton?

Do we really have to go down that road? OK.

Schumacher's "dog" Ferrari was the second best car in the grid. And it had, especially against the McLarens, very good reliability. It didn't matter how close or far he was from them, if they didn't finish he won by default.

Schumacher benefitted plenty from Senna dying, Benneton cheating, FIA helping Ferrari win again in every way they could, a dream leadership team at Ferrari, etc.

"Yet why is he not revered as highly as Alonso, or Hamilton?"

He is. If you REALLY mean, why don't I see him revered as highly as Alonso or Hamilton in online forums, that is because Vettel doesn't have the army of fanboys the other two have making noise. Which they do only because they arrived on the scene first.

I have never seen anyone that wasn't a Hamilton fanboy "revere" him.

[FoxHound]

if they didn't finish he won by default.

Hmmmm you sure?


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjUBRGHwdfU[/youtube]

Yes, this is a "default" victory.

And this, finishing ahead of both Williams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Belgi ... _Prix#Race

My view here is that he had second rate machinery, in relation to his opponents. And in this situation he still managed to shine.

[Waywardism]

I just don't like this implying that Vettel will need to do something special this year (define?) and that he needs to prove himself.

Comprehensively beating his much less experienced team mate would be an absolute minimum requirement. It's not like RB are favouring Ricciardo.

[MercedesAMGSpy]

Why not look at MSC's record in it's entirety? He is revered as one of the greatest for good reason.
In 1996 he won 3 times in a dog of a Ferrari. In 1997 he pushed the Newey penned Williams right down to the final race....literally . In a car not anywhere near the equal of the Newey penned Williams.
In 1998 he pushed Hakkinen to the last race, despite not having a Newey penned McLaren.
His Benenton WDC's where even more impressive for me. Some absolute insane drives by him, which was in the face of better machinery.

There is no parrellel to Vettel.

Vettel is the benefactor of Newey Genius. This is undeniable.
And Seb uses it very well. Again, undeniable.

I will make a football comparison so as you can see more clearly what my view is. Ruud Van Nistelrooy scored a ton of goals for Manchester United. His European record was immense. He scored something like 60 goals at the same or higher ratio than Messi and Ronaldo.
He was an accumulator of goals. But he would be near anonymous when the team didn't perform.

Now you look at Messi or Ronaldo. When those chips are down, these guys come up with the goods more often than not. They create something, by force of will, skill, or by luck or whatever.....something happens.
By looking at how things have been won, accounting for all the factors, Ronaldo and Messi are on a completely different planet to Mr Van Nistelrooy. And that is not a slight on the guy as his record was fantastic.

Similarly, Vettel has a superior record to Senna. He has a better record than any of his current contemporaries.
Yet why is he not revered as highly as Alonso, or Hamilton?

Do we really have to go down that road? OK.

Schumacher's "dog" Ferrari was the second best car in the grid. And it had, especially against the McLarens, very good reliability. It didn't matter how close or far he was from them, if they didn't finish he won by default.

Schumacher benefitted plenty from Senna dying, Benneton cheating, FIA helping Ferrari win again in every way they could, a dream leadership team at Ferrari, etc.

"Yet why is he not revered as highly as Alonso, or Hamilton?"

He is. If you REALLY mean, why don't I see him revered as highly as Alonso or Hamilton in online forums, that is because Vettel doesn't have the army of fanboys the other two have making noise. Which they do only because they arrived on the scene first.

I have never seen anyone that wasn't a Hamilton fanboy "revere" him.

Haha, don't think so. Apparently these two guys have something Vettel hasn't. My guess is fighting with a dog and still winning races. Vettel can prove this year if he can do it.

[PlatinumZealot]

I know. It's ridiculous how the memory selectively chooses what is "great".

Here's some examples:
• Alonso (the "best" driver in F1) - can't win a WDC in a Ferrari.
• Webber (highly regarded) - can't win a WDC in the best F1 cars (RB6, 7, 8 & 9).
• Button (average at best) - wins a WDC in a trick car, can't get close before or since.

A WDC is the perfect combination of everything. Ever single thing has to be 'perfect' for it to happen. Now do that 4 times straight. It's freakish. Yes the car played a part, but someone had to steer it cleanly lap after lap for 4 years. The pressure, the hype, the expectations. Having to deal with that and still get results is nothing short of 'great'.

Hate the man. Yes. Worship the car. Yes. But the combination was nothing short of brilliance. To dismiss that simply misses what F1 is - really hard to win.

You just need a really good team and car and one decent driver. If Vettel had a team mate to challenge him every race, then yeah, his 4WDC in a row would be much more difficult. But instead, he had an ageing Webber who could only match him a handfull of times.