What is F1??? Past, Present and Future of a dying Sport.

[sennaf1god.94]

Time to point the finger.

As a Peugeot Sport long time fan, I could be too influenced by his "treason" with Ferrari, but I honestly backed his decision back then because he had no choice from Peugeot board. Stealing Gilles Simon was a huge blow to Peugeot F1 chances to success in partnership with McLaren, so even there I forgiven him, he was doing what he was paid for: building a winning team.



Jean was a rally codriver, that happenen to lead Peugeot Sport assault of the World Rally Championship using Groub B Peugeot 205 rallycars. A category that was actually banned by the FISA (FIA) because it was just UNLIMITED, aka too fast and dangerous.

Todt was one of the greatest criticts back then against FISA decisions, and pulled Peugeot Sport out of that championship to pursue Pikes Peak and Dakar "rallying".



In 2009, Jean Todt then became president of the organism he had been so critic about when he was a Team Manager...and now we found that he is the one sanctioning this farce racing where everything is LIMITED and STAGED: fuel, energy, tyre choices, engine life, etc...

Jean is the Great Traitor of the Sport. (Monti might think the same about him and Ferrari)

[henra]

Although one has always to be a bit wary of getting too notsalgic oneself and romanticizing the 'good old times', this year's change in F1 with the dreastic further 'sanitizing' of the Sport leaves the distinct feeling that from a pure emotional perspective it is going totally in the wrong direction.
And emotions is what it is all about. Similar to watching football people are watching F1 because it is an emotional thing. I don't have to watch it to improve my daily life or work. It is not essential to life. It exists purely to fascinate People and similar to Football only that enables it to be a Business at the same time. Trying to make a Business from it in the first place (Yes I know it's not easy to resist the pressure of the big automotive companies) and neglecting the real reason for its existance is not a good and healthy trend. I see also frightening similarities to the US Monoposto classes' demise.
These quiet and efficient (albeit a bit slow) cars don't touch me the same way the old V10 or V12 Monsters did. They gave you goose bumps when revving and screaming like crazy. This year's cars are as far from that as it gets.

Looking at my own feelings in this Topic I'm a bit shocked I found myself on the nostalgic side of the fence since I usually try to avoid being part of the grumpy old men side, glorifying the past but this time even I couldn't resist. And that in itself tells me something.

[heidenreich27]

F1 is really dying:

I want V12 , amazing Sound, KERS 20Second and DRS.

Overtaking is too difficult now

[sennaf1god.94]

Trying to make a Business from it in the first place (Yes I know it's not easy to resist the pressure of the big automotive companies) and neglecting the real reason for its existance is not a good and healthy trend. I see also frightening similarities to the US Monoposto classes' demise.

Making bussiness out of the Sport is great always, it shows how healthy the fanbase actually is...

What´s pretty indicative of the intentions of the "illuminated heads" to keep the course and turn the back on fans, is that they want to invest time and money trying to "educate" fans about the goodness of the current engine formula...

If anybody should be blamed it's me, we were the ones who looked at bringing in the new technology. It was 10 years in the making, and I actually like the noise.

I wear these things in both my ears (hearing aids) because the noise of the engines went right through me for 40 years or more. It's too late to save my hearing but not for the next generation. The quieter engines are better for families. You can take children to races without fear of their being deafened.

So here it´s one of the main selling points for New Age F1...

IT´S BETTER FOR FAMILIES!!!

=D>

[Just_a_fan]

A category that was actually banned by the FISA (FIA) because it was just UNLIMITED, aka too fast and dangerous.

Yes, it was killing people...

[sennaf1god.94]

Yes, it was killing people... (A fallacy)

Then the FIA should ban roadcars...

They kill millions of people.

[Just_a_fan]

Let's address some points here:

1. The FIA don't control road cars. They have, however, managed to get some safety issues addressed on road cars as part of their push to get road safety improved.

2. Try telling Toivonen and Cresto that it was a fallacy that they died in a Group B car.

3. It's bad form to quote someone and then alter the quote to change its meaning.

[sennaf1god.94]

2. Try telling Toivonen and Cresto that it was a fallacy that they died in a Group B car.

You seem blinded by the light...

Fact is that FISA killed all forms of motorsport during the late 80´s and first 90´s just for the sake of it: Group B, Group C, WSC, etc...

Disciplines that attracted all kinds of Manufacturers, but since FISA wanted them in F1, they just killed all this spectacular series straightening their way into the pinnacle of motorsports...

During the process they used all kinds of treats and excuses to ban everything but F1 itself, while Toivonen´s dead was the ONLY ONE that year, it was good enough to waste it, and they just killed Group B cars just for a single accident.

Taking this as an example, why not banning F1 in 1994 after Senna´s & Ratzemberger´s death???

Group A Rallycars in 1989 had three times the deathtoll of Group B´s during 1986, why FISA didn´t banned Group A too?

Do your homework and then come here and post something sensible with the issue, instead of fallacies...

[Edax]

well if we're going for sound alone I'd say this one would qualify.


But seriously nostalgia, is a funny thing. I got the feeling that people here are composing some strange mental picture combining the best of the turbo races with the sounds of the high revving v10's in the early 2000's and the aestetics of the cars halfway the nineties and declaring that this is what F1 should be.

Which is great as a concept. But to claim that it was like that is falsifying history.

I've been watching F1 for a long time, and while I still love it, I have to admit that there are only a few races per year which I really remember, regardless of the "era". Perhaps the end of the 80's beginning of the nineties the racing was more fun. But this was mainly because the cars were so ridiculous that overtakes were plenty simply because the guy in front made a mistake. That of course had a flipside. Seeing Rolands car bounce back from that wall, seeing the side of the cockpit destroyed, helmet bobbing as the car slid to a halt, is something which is engraved in my memory. I did not watch the race after that, or the rest of the races that year. I'm not here to watch young guys kill themselves. Something needed to change. Though the change robbed us of some of the spectacle, I am glad they did.

With the current format I am okay(ish).
+ I like it that the cars have a degree of unpredictability, moments of understeer or snap oversteer. That puts the driver back in the picture.
+ The sound I actually don't care about, if it goes fast then this is the sound of going fast.
+ Amount of buttons, well I think I have more buttons in my car than they have.

The main problem I still have with the series is the circuit. I think the circuits are often to wide. Tilke has a habit of creating complete runways also in places where no overtaking is possible, killing the perception of speed. The circuits are also too predictable and clean: silky smooth asphalt, undulating turns.

A good circuit should feature at least a) a bump on a very inconvenient place b) a corner which can only be a result of the builders just running the asphalting machine around the terrain by eyeball and ending up on a spot where they need to stich the pieces of asfalt together to complete the track c) a risky way of making up time, like a drainage gutter which you can use to rotate a car (do it wrong and you're facing the other way).

If anything is going to kill F1 it is the tracks. You can have racing fun in any type of car whether it is powered by a v12, a hybrid, or eco-farts....

....but not on any type of track.

[Cam]

Fact is that FISA killed all forms of motorsport during the late 80´s and first 90´s just for the sake of it: Group B, Group C, WSC, etc...

Disciplines that attracted all kinds of Manufacturers, but since FISA wanted them in F1, they just killed all this spectacular series straightening their way into the pinnacle of motorsports...

So you're suggesting there was a conspired effort to remove certain motorsport series in an effort to get the manufacturers to go to F1 - presumably for the financial gain of said conspirators?

That's actually an interesting proposition and has wide reaching consequences - if it's provable. What can show to support this?

[Lycoming]

So you're suggesting there was a conspired effort to remove certain motorsport series in an effort to get the manufacturers to go to F1 - presumably for the financial gain of said conspirators?

Actually, they basically did this with WSC, though I doubt that was their intention.

[Cam]

I had to go read up on it:

1993 demise of WSC
The new generation of WSC racing engines, with the stated intent of cost reduction and improved competition, quickly proved highly suspect. Costs rose massively as works teams developed cars capable of qualifying around half way up a Formula 1 grid, despite weighing some 200 kg more. Manufacturers again abandoned the sportscar series, realising they now had an engine suitable for F1. In particular, Mercedes and Peugeot elected to either concentrate on or move solely to F1. The more exotic engines were unaffordable for teams like Spice and ADA, thus after the manufacturers left the top class of sportscar racing, the series essentially collapsed. A lack of entries meant the 1993 season was cancelled before the first race.

It does look that way doesn't it? You can see a lot of similarities to F1 today.

sennaf1god.94 - you can supply great content when you chose too - I learnt something today about WSC. If you'd only tone the other garble back a touch, it would help greatly.

Edit: you get a +1 for that snippet of WSC.

[SectorOne]

Wasn´t Bernie FIA Vice president in 93?
Or maybe it was FISA,

[sennaf1god.94]

I doubt that was their intention.

"Doubt is the mother of all knowledge".

Trademark by SennaF1God.94

[Moebius]

2. Try telling Toivonen and Cresto that it was a fallacy that they died in a Group B car.

During the process they used all kinds of treats and excuses to ban everything but F1 itself, while Toivonen´s dead was the ONLY ONE that year, it was good enough to waste it, and they just killed Group B cars just for a single accident.

Let's not forget the 3 people that were killed during the Portuguese Rally, and let's not forget Michel Wyder, who died in the 1986 ADAC Hessen-Rallye aboard a Ford RS200.

Group B was killed because it had outgrown the "tracks" it was using. That specific formula was more akin to circuit racing rather than to road racing.

WSC on the other hand... now that was a deal with all the side notes of a conspiracy. But if you think about it, just some years ago, the FIA wanted to have a World Engine Class, in which the same engine block could be used from touring to rally even to F1 cars, just by changing the additional that you place on an engine (pressurized admission systems, ECUs, fuel limiters, etc).