Adrian Newey on quitting F1

[GitanesBlondes]

But that is the point timbo, today's engine's has a 4500 Rpm gear-shifting window with constant power, where do you see that in the Honda 168E?

Much less than 4500. More like 2500, and on the 168E there's zone between 11-13k where the power changes little, and it too was limited -- via boost. I'd get if you posted '86 engine graph, but not '88.
The sound is dull, no question, but as engine 2014 is totally fine, especially compared to V8s, which were most of the time underpowered for the available grip.

That's only because no one has any reason to run the engine up to the max 15,000RPM.

A race engine where the teams have no reason to run the engine to max RPM allowed is not a race engine. It's one thing if you're short-shifting during the race to either prevent a possibly mechanical breakdown. Or late in the race, the fuel gauge is near empty, and you're trying to save fuel for the finish line (not that it would happen since the techs are watching all of that).

That's another reason why there is nothing special about these Prius-wannabe engines. I'd actually tell you the most remarkable thing about the engines comes in the form of how ridiculously expensive they are, for what they actually do.

Operating window of 0 to 12,500RPM with a limited fuel flow rate.

I equate the reality of these engines to when you finally take that really hot girl that you used to lust after for months on end, to bed, only to find out she's the equivalent of a dead fish. Only most of the fans are still not picking up on the dead fish part yet because they're more in love with the idea of F1 seeming to have some semblance of responsibility which almost never happens.

[timbo]

A race engine where the teams have no reason to run the engine to max RPM allowed is not a race engine.

If funny that of all people YOU say that. "Max rpm allowed" only appeared since engine freeze days. It was always about max power rpm, which at times happen to be lower than max rpm engine could take.

It's one thing if you're short-shifting during the race to either prevent a possibly mechanical breakdown. Or late in the race, the fuel gauge is near empty, and you're trying to save fuel for the finish line (not that it would happen since the techs are watching all of that).

Were techs on vacation at Imola'85?

That's another reason why there is nothing special about these Prius-wannabe engines. I'd actually tell you the most remarkable thing about the engines comes in the form of how ridiculously expensive they are, for what they actually do.

What do they do, extract more power out of 30% less fuel than yesteryear 8-bangers?
I say this is impressive.

I equate the reality of these engines to when you finally take that really hot girl that you used to lust after for months on end, to bed, only to find out she's the equivalent of a dead fish. Only most of the fans are still not picking up on the dead fish part yet because they're more in love with the idea of F1 seeming to have some semblance of responsibility which almost never happens.

Except V8 were even more dead, if you like.
The only problem there is, is the sound.

[GitanesBlondes]

Timbo my point is, if you want F1 to really matter from an engine engineering standpoint, things like max RPM, power, fuel flow rate should not be dictated. Let the engineers find out the achievable limits on their own.

San Marino '85 was marked by the drivers turning off the boost pressure to conserve fuel.

Actually timbo, the engines themselves produce less power. So...hundreds of millions spent to have engines that achieve what, 3.5MPG? lol Besides, what would have made sense was dictating a fuel limit, and let the teams do whatever they want.

[xpensive]

I suspect that if there's anything bothering Newey more than the aero-limitations, it's these quasi-endurance engines,
which only serves the purpose of being a token for some preposterous PC-ambitions to market Formula 1 as "green".

Utter nonsense if you ask me.

[timbo]

Actually timbo, the engines themselves produce less power.

It's a package. I don't care what puts power on the road.

Besides, what would have made sense was dictating a fuel limit, and let the teams do whatever they want.

People already complain about Merc dominance. With less restrictions the gap would be much wider.

[GitanesBlondes]

Actually timbo, the engines themselves produce less power.

It's a package. I don't care what puts power on the road.

The 2014 ICE producing something like 430 mJ/120kwh less, makes it a hell of a lot easier to tout efficiency ratings when the ERS is picking up the remaining balance. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other at the end of the day. The usual linguistic double-speak to make people think there is something revolutionary going on, when about the only revolutionary thing going on, is how easy it is to fool people into thinking something groundbreaking was actually achieved.

Kind of like the totally incorrect economic conclusions that people have reached that somehow limiting engines per season will help keep costs low.

People already complain about Merc dominance. With less restrictions the gap would be much wider.

What kind of asinine statement is that? There's nothing that even lends that credence.

[timbo]

Actually timbo, the engines themselves produce less power.

It's a package. I don't care what puts power on the road.

The 2014 ICE producing something like 430 mJ/120kwh less, makes it a hell of a lot easier to tout efficiency ratings when the ERS is picking up the remaining balance. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other at the end of the day. The usual linguistic double-speak to make people think there is something revolutionary going on, when about the only revolutionary thing going on, is how easy it is to fool people into thinking something groundbreaking was actually achieved.

Even without ERS engines are more efficient than V8s. Part of the

Kind of like the totally incorrect economic conclusions that people have reached that somehow limiting engines per season will help keep costs low.

In the freeze era it indeed curbed engine cost. Cosworth was able to enter without backing.

People already complain about Merc dominance. With less restrictions the gap would be much wider.

What kind of asinine statement is that? There's nothing that even lends that credence.

Think as you like, but this is reality. Any big racing series experienced rules clamp down to prevent one maker domination.

[xpensive]

...
Think as you like, but this is reality. Any big racing series experienced rules clamp down to prevent one maker domination.

Perhaps so, but never combined with such complexity as 2014 Formula 1 and frozen developments.

[GitanesBlondes]

In the freeze era it indeed curbed engine cost. Cosworth was able to enter without backing.

Timbo, try and understand how economic competition works, and the impact it has on prices over time. You'll understand quickly how flawed freezing engines is as an economic solution to costs.

People already complain about Merc dominance. With less restrictions the gap would be much wider.

What kind of asinine statement is that? There's nothing that even lends that credence.

Think as you like, but this is reality. Any big racing series experienced rules clamp down to prevent one maker domination.[/quote]

Reality?

I was not the one who made a statement that had zero basis in reality.

Again, explain to me how you can definitively state the gap would be that much wider.

Did it ever occur to you that how Ferrari or Renault approached their design may have been far different than what is seen now?

[JimClarkFan]

...
Think as you like, but this is reality. Any big racing series experienced rules clamp down to prevent one maker domination.

Perhaps so, but never combined with such complexity as 2014 Formula 1 and frozen developments.

The clamp down on in season development is wrong, however not everyone thinks that these engines are a waste of time.

I think the engines are awesome, they certainly aren't endurance engines

[bhall II]

Fuel restrictions notwithstanding, I think the longevity requirement - five PUs over the course of an entire season - definitely puts them in an endurance category.

Anyone have any ideas about how much more power could be wrought from these things if they only had to last one weekend?

[timbo]

Timbo, try and understand how economic competition works, and the impact it has on prices over time. You'll understand quickly how flawed freezing engines is as an economic solution to costs.

There never was pure economic competition in F1. Flawed or not, it (+ a limit on the number of engines per season) worked, prices for engines over the season were much higher at the early 2000s than in the freeze era.

Reality?

I was not the one who made a statement that had zero basis in reality.

Again, explain to me how you can definitively state the gap would be that much wider.

Wider window of possibilities, more potential to screw things up. The examples would be active suspension development, turbo-development, Can-Am etc. Each time new technology appears someone masters it faster than the rest, the less regulation the more domination.

Did it ever occur to you that how Ferrari or Renault approached their design may have been far different than what is seen now?

Might be, doesn't change anything.

[xpensive]

Fuel restrictions notwithstanding, I think the longevity requirement - five PUs over the course of an entire season - definitely puts them in an endurance category.

Anyone have any ideas about how much more power could be wrought from these things if they only had to last one weekend?

Not much, though 600 Hp from a 1.6 turbo is even historically pretty lame, unless they increase the fuel flow of course,
then 800 Hp should not be any problem whatsoever.

[GitanesBlondes]

There never was pure economic competition in F1. Flawed or not, it (+ a limit on the number of engines per season) worked, prices for engines over the season were much higher at the early 2000s than in the freeze era.

When you make that statement, try and be certain the comparison actually works.

If you have unlimited use of engines, while the total cost can be more, the cost per unit decreases so you receive a better value for what you're paying for.

Wider window of possibilities, more potential to screw things up. The examples would be active suspension development, turbo-development, Can-Am etc. Each time new technology appears someone masters it faster than the rest, the less regulation the more domination.

That would fit in with exactly how grand prix racing operated, and successfully for the first hundred years of existence.

Might be, doesn't change anything.

Except you were the one who said that Mercedes would still have an advantage of there were no restrictions on engines. I was pointing out that line of thinking is flawed because there are too many variables that would change, so that a definitive statement cannot be made.

[timbo]

If you have unlimited use of engines, while the total cost can be more, the cost per unit decreases so you receive a better value for what you're paying for.

But it is the total cost which matters. You don't ask your sponsor to give you twice the money so you could by 3 times more engines. You spend what you have.

That would fit in with exactly how grand prix racing operated, and successfully for the first hundred years of existence.

Successfully? There were different times. There were times when F1 was effectively F2. There was a time when nobody except two German teams participated in the top class. I don't see how modern F1 is not a success comparatively. Maybe not the best year, but there were plenty of boring seasons in each era.

Except you were the one who said that Mercedes would still have an advantage of there were no restrictions on engines. I was pointing out that line of thinking is flawed because there are too many variables that would change, so that a definitive statement cannot be made.

It could be Renault, or Ferrari. Doesn't matter, more often than not in event of a big rule change there appear one of two makers who make things much better than the rest. And yeah, I admit I should have phrased it differently, but a probability is on that side.