Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
seinfeld
-7
Joined: 02 Apr 2010, 13:16

Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

So I'm wondering why we are seeing all the lower teams struggle with downforce 1/2 way through the season.
They say we just dont have to downforce. Well just copy Mercedes, williams and redbull. Now people are going to say it may not work with the car. well if they copy the front and rear wings then it's sure to work!

I don't understand why the lower end teams don't comprehend this. it's not rocket science! And we would have closer racing!

feni_remmen
3
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 15:43

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

Better question; Why don't they just copy the whole car?

wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

seinfeld wrote:Well just copy Mercedes, williams and redbull.
Sadly enough, copying requires more than just looking at pictures and remaking it in CAD. No, it requires actual aero testing. Oh, and funds often also are an issue.
Now people are going to say it may not work with the car. well if they copy the front and rear wings then it's sure to work!
If copying one thing does not work, what makes you think two things work? Also, there is this thing called a "car" in between the front and rear wing.
I don't understand why the lower end teams don't comprehend this. it's not rocket science! And we would have closer racing!
It's also not rocket science to comprehend that you can do more with more funds, and when you can do more, you most likely do better. It's not a coincidence that the WCC standings equal the fundings the teams have. The financially strongest teams are at the top of the leaderboards and the weaker teams are at the lower end.

But like feni_remmen says, why not just copy the whole car, why stop with the wings?
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

seinfeld wrote:So I'm wondering why we are seeing all the lower teams struggle with downforce 1/2 way through the season.
They say we just dont have to downforce. Well just copy Mercedes, williams and redbull. Now people are going to say it may not work with the car. well if they copy the front and rear wings then it's sure to work!

I don't understand why the lower end teams don't comprehend this. it's not rocket science! And we would have closer racing!
I think you have a very wrong idea of aerodynamics - it's as complicated as rocket science, if not more complicated- and that you aren't comprehending how difficult it is to get airflow patterns to match all around the car. In modern aerodynamics it isn't like slapping a front wing, rear wing on and ta da downforce. Teams spend tenths of millions just on sidepod design to optimise it.
#AeroFrodo

timbo
111
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

Think of designing an aero concept of a car as finding optimum to multiparametric model with a number of parameters which is very high. The problem with such optimization is that finding a best solution is highly nonlinear. Messing (and missing) the parameters ever so slightly might upset the system tremendously and move you from optimum very far.
So to make a car work not only they have to copy design to the exact dimensions, with very little margin for error but also copy everything including fiber layup as effects of aero elasticity may play into car performance.

User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 01:21
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

timbo wrote:So to make a car work not only they have to copy design to the exact dimensions, with very little margin for error but also copy everything including fiber layup as effects of aero elasticity may play into car performance.
Hmmmm... performance is soooo aero dominated. I wonder to which extent a small team could do exactly that, missing on the flexible aero. Copy every external mm of the Reb Bull showing up in Barcelona. Build as heavy as you must to copy, and if you end up a bit overweight so be it. You of course miss on everything flexible, internal, blowed... but the external visible package is probably 90% of what there is to it. One can probably have the copy made on time for the summer break, and most components can be ready and tested well in advance. And then do not touch a fiber more all season long. Adapt your internal cooling, your brakes, you suspension, even you power to make it work with that external aero.
Aero is subtle and complicated, but all teams have the same tires, many have the same engine, and I assume that the basic carbon fiber materials and techniques are the same. This won't help, say Force India, but Caterham, which is 4 seconds off the pace... and it it works, next season you keep that skin, and after having 6 months to redesign inside of it, you might be only 2 seconds off the pace.

I know we all say all the time that it is not so simple and that it won't work, but maybe it could work to a point, if you copy everything? We also said that Mercedes could not possibly have 100HP advantage, but, with a lot of caveats, turns out they might have in Australia.

I say it might work for a Caterham or a Minardi, or at least I would consider not dismissing the idea immediately. It is like exchanging your 12 overworked aero guys for a leech on Red Bull's gigantinormous wind tunnel / black magic programme. Since Newey has a higher salary than your entire aero design team, you might as well assume that he knows something that you don't? Imagine having copied the floor, just the floor, of the Lotus 79 back in the day...
Rivals, not enemies.

timbo
111
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

hollus wrote:
timbo wrote:So to make a car work not only they have to copy design to the exact dimensions, with very little margin for error but also copy everything including fiber layup as effects of aero elasticity may play into car performance.
Hmmmm... performance is soooo aero dominated. I wonder to which extent a small team could do exactly that, missing on the flexible aero. Copy every external mm of the Reb Bull showing up in Barcelona.
To do that they'd have to put the entire car into 3D scanner. I don't think RedBull would be OK with it.

Raleigh
29
Joined: 29 Jul 2014, 15:36

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

hollus wrote:
Hmmmm... performance is soooo aero dominated. I wonder to which extent a small team could do exactly that, missing on the flexible aero. Copy every external mm of the Reb Bull showing up in Barcelona. Build as heavy as you must to copy, and if you end up a bit overweight so be it. You of course miss on everything flexible, internal, blowed... but the external visible package is probably 90% of what there is to it. One can probably have the copy made on time for the summer break, and most components can be ready and tested well in advance. And then do not touch a fiber more all season long. Adapt your internal cooling, your brakes, you suspension, even you power to make it work with that external aero.
Aero is subtle and complicated, but all teams have the same tires, many have the same engine, and I assume that the basic carbon fiber materials and techniques are the same. This won't help, say Force India, but Caterham, which is 4 seconds off the pace... and it it works, next season you keep that skin, and after having 6 months to redesign inside of it, you might be only 2 seconds off the pace.
Might not have to copy everything directly. Just the floor, front and rear wings. Try to copy the cooling layout if its better than current but don't sweat it, sidepod shape isn't as important as some people on these forums seem to believe. The tub will be more or less the same regarding aero, just work on getting it as light as possible. Straight copy of the suspension, shouldn't be too complicated.

Rather than do that for summer, have this as next years car. Work though the winter to build and understand it, hopefully turn up at the first test with something close to the previous years Red Bull (or Merc). Which would be a fair way better than something a backmarker is likely to build on their own. Spend the year looking at what the lead team has done for that years car, figuring out how it works and incorporating it into updates. And so on.

beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

Chatham actually do do this each year - they copy the best performing car from last year. Look where it got them.

Perhaps aerodynamics *is* as complex as rocket science (hint, actually, the complex thing about rocket science *is* fluid dynamics, whether it be making a rocket efficiently cut through the air, or making the flow patterns of fuel in the engine bell produce huge amounts of power, while simultaneously not melting everything in sight).

marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

Mind you getting Close is just not enough in this Business - 5% off and you are dead last ....Do not underestimate what Caterham and Marussia do -in the light of sauber who run one of the best Tunnels in the Business they are not far off .
I ´d think much of this years woes is triggered by the interaction and Integration of Systems .And you need manpower to handle this -even Ferrari and Mercedes struggle in these areas at times so how about Marrussia and Caterham?
I think it´s necessary to know the beast you are campaigning and not rely too much on other teams ideas. I´m sure teams copy everything they find useful for integration in their own concepts and it is done up and Downstream the pitlane .
Last edited by marcush. on 03 Aug 2014, 22:46, edited 1 time in total.

wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

Raleigh wrote: Might not have to copy everything directly. Just the floor, front and rear wings.
And what about the rest of the bodywork, think that that doesnt benefit aero?
Try to copy the cooling layout if its better than current but don't sweat it
Sadly enough, there is more to the cooling system than radiator packaging. Most of it wont be so easily photographed, try copying that!
sidepod shape isn't as important as some people on these forums seem to believe.
Ehhm, well yes it is;
1. It has to house radiators and flow through them
2. Airflow over and around the sidepods have to be managed according to different flow fields.
3. The shape of the sidepod plays an important part on sealing the floor and getting air around the back over the diffuser.
4. Sidepods have to be designed to reduce lift.

If sidepod design wasn't important then why do we see teams adopting similar solutions? All are now using vanes on the leading edge of the side pods, and more and more of them are using the longer shape.
The tub will be more or less the same regarding aero,
Same as sidepods, although more limited in their freedom.
Straight copy of the suspension, shouldn't be too complicated.
Sadly enough, suspension is more than just some pretty suspension arms being exposed to the air. No, attachment points, uprights, hubs, dampers, shocks, springs, you name it. All part of the suspension design. You can't just stick a copy of the suspension arms on your car and hope it will stick. No, a different arm design will also deliver the loads differently, which then will have a mechanical impact.
Rather than do that for summer, have this as next years car.
Great idea, seeing how F1 development goes rather quickly, your copy will again be behind. Take a look at Caterham, their 2012 car was largely inspired by the red bull. Yet, they were still miles behind. Copying anothers car will mean that you will always stay behind in development. Because guess what, once you have copied their one thing, they have already developed it further.
Work though the winter to build and understand it, hopefully turn up at the first test with something close to the previous years Red Bull (or Merc). Which would be a fair way better than something a backmarker is likely to build on their own.
I'm sure Caterham agrees! Or Toro Rosso, who has ran exact copies of RB's cars. did they perform the same? NOPE!
Spend the year looking at what the lead team has done for that years car, figuring out how it works and incorporating it into updates. And so on.
That's the perfect formula to stay a backmarker because you'll always be behind in development.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

Sure this approach is not a way forward.But then what is?
Marussia had Pat Symmonds who is called messiah at Williams todays but he seemed not to make a big difference there..Caterham has big names in Illey and Gascoyne and Smith were there as well -it did not help ,it did not even help to have the complete rearend of RedBull to lift the Caterham from the back of the field...So if a near 70% copy will not bring success with big head personel it is most likely something else is driving Performance.I hear you say :Money.
But neither Ferari,Mclaren ,or a few years back Honda and Toyota had a handle on it with deepest pockets at their disposal.
Is it the engine deal ? Look at Caterham or williams both had Renault and did not hold a candle...
Look at sauber who challenged Ferrari quite a bit with their car two years ago -same engine ,same gearbox ,but maybe 30 % of Ferrari funds if at all....and MattMorris designing the thing ...

beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

marcush. wrote:Sure this approach is not a way forward.But then what is?
Marussia had Pat Symmonds who is called messiah at Williams todays but he seemed not to make a big difference there.
I don't think that's true at all. Marussia, for me, are now a mid field team. They're capable of reliably beating Sauber, and are only ~2-3 seconds behind Mercedes, which, given that the start of the mid field is 1 second behind Mercedes is no small feat.

User avatar
SectorOne
166
Joined: 26 May 2013, 09:51

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

timbo wrote:To do that they'd have to put the entire car into 3D scanner. I don't think RedBull would be OK with it.
Stick the laserscanner on one of those arms for pit stops, let the bull go past and you have an exact carbon copy replica of half the car down to millimeters.

Pretty sure that´s illegal though.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

Post

timbo wrote:
hollus wrote:
timbo wrote:So to make a car work not only they have to copy design to the exact dimensions, with very little margin for error but also copy everything including fiber layup as effects of aero elasticity may play into car performance.
Hmmmm... performance is soooo aero dominated. I wonder to which extent a small team could do exactly that, missing on the flexible aero. Copy every external mm of the Reb Bull showing up in Barcelona.
To do that they'd have to put the entire car into 3D scanner. I don't think RedBull would be OK with it.
Exactly was I was going to say, you need a complete scanner to copy any aerodynamic part

Look at these airfoils:
Image
Image

They look very similiar, watching the section you can easily find some differences, but that´s watching the section. If you see a plane that use one of these, you can examine it carefully for hours but will never differ wich of them it is using

And first is MG06 airfoil, for thermal soaring (lift as a goal) while second is RG14, speed airfoil. Two completely different airfoils, for different categories actually, so imagine how small may be the differences between airfoils for same category.

Half milimeter is a whole world on aerodynamics, it´s imposible to copy by eye
SectorOne wrote:Stick the laserscanner on one of those arms for pit stops, let the bull go past and you have an exact carbon copy replica of half the car down to millimeters.

Pretty sure that´s illegal though.
And you still would need the lower part, what makes the upper scanner useless

Post Reply