Engine Unfreeze

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langwadt
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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djos wrote:
Richard wrote:
To avoid an arms race with teams using expensive unobtanium to get to a 4mm diameter valve stem. IMHO that's a sensible rule, it's the teams agreeing that some things are silly and a waste of money. (the teams have a hand in writing these rules)
I've always wondered why the FIA banned specific materials, imo it would make a lot more sense to ban materials that cost more than say X dollars per kilo on the open market.

That way when exotic new materials start to become available in commercial quantities and at more reasonable prices F1 teams can start using them.

Iirc there are a number of light weight alloys not allowed in F1 today (banned in the 90's or 2000's) that are showing up already in road cars.

E.g. beryllium is now about $40p/kg vs $800p/kg in the 80's
could be that beryllium is cheap because no one wants anything to do with it, unless there is absolutely no alternative, since it is highly toxic

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djos
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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langwadt wrote: could be that beryllium is cheap because no one wants anything to do with it, unless there is absolutely no alternative, since it is highly toxic
sure it isnt easy to work with but it is usually used to make Metal and even Ceramic alloy's as it makes them lighter and stronger.
Because beryllium is valuable, it is often recycled. In fact, beryllium is recyclable over and over. Clean scrap beryllium metal and alloys containing beryllium can be sold back to the industry for direct recycling into new products. Beryllium is also reclaimed from products that have reached the end of their life cycle and efficiently returned to the manufacturing stream through recycling. It requires significantly less energy to produce recycled beryllium compared to making beryllium from ore.
Anyway, that was just the example I 1st thought of, there are quite a few others.
Last edited by djos on 28 Oct 2014, 01:00, edited 2 times in total.
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Facts Only
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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A number of things are banned for safety rather than cost. Magnesium swarf for example has a nasty habit of bursting into flames which is especially dangerous when you are running CNC machines all night to meet race day deadlines for parts (which can affect teams and suppliers alike)
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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Richard wrote:If the goal is to ensure a certain number of teams are able to compete then the costs have be managed to ensure that happens. Otherwise the small teams go bust.

If however that has too much of stench of communism then forget about aiming to have a full grid and allow survival of the fittest. There will be fewer teams on the grid who'll form a cosy cabal because they're the only people who can participate in the arms race.

Reality needs to lie somewhere between those two extremes. Reward success but also give a helping hand to those small teams that are trying to get a foothold in the sport.

ps - There is a wonderful irony that much of this conversation has an undercurrent that people who don't care for racing are ruining the sport. However the biggest advocates for maintaining the engine freeze are the employees of Ron Dennis, Frank WiIliams and Nicki Lauda.
Two of those men are benefiting from the engine freeze. Anyone allied with Mercedes currently is going to argue in favor of an engine freeze. I haven't seen any of them present any good argument for it.

Here's the thing with F1 and technology in general, F1 has to decide whether or not it wants to continue pretending to be cutting edge, or if it wants to be entertainment. When it tries to do both, it does both poorly.

Say F1 strives to be entertainment first and foremost as opposed to this road relevant myth, the teams could start dusting off the old engine blueprints from the 3.5L formula days and start using those. It's weird, because when F1 as a whole wasn't so dead set on trying to prove itself as both entertainment and sport, it was incredibly engaging to watch. It's only when it became obsessed with both things that it progressively became a clusterf*ck.
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langwadt
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Facts Only wrote:A number of things are banned for safety rather than cost. Magnesium swarf for example has a nasty habit of bursting into flames which is especially dangerous when you are running CNC machines all night to meet race day deadlines for parts (which can affect teams and suppliers alike)
Titanium also burn quite well, even en nitrogen, and reacts with water producing hydrogen to make it worse

Gettingonabit
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Facts Only wrote:A number of things are banned for safety rather than cost. Magnesium swarf for example has a nasty habit of bursting into flames which is especially dangerous when you are running CNC machines all night to meet race day deadlines for parts (which can affect teams and suppliers alike)
Aircraft industry has been machining magnesium for decades, fires are extremely rare.

Facts Only
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Gettingonabit wrote:
Facts Only wrote:A number of things are banned for safety rather than cost. Magnesium swarf for example has a nasty habit of bursting into flames which is especially dangerous when you are running CNC machines all night to meet race day deadlines for parts (which can affect teams and suppliers alike)
Aircraft industry has been machining magnesium for decades, fires are extremely rare.
Formula 1 and Aerospace are rather different aren't they. Do I need to explain about the decades long process in aerospace vs the absolute speed required to machine race parts? It wasn't a theory either it's true.
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diffuser
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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I agree with this . This is exactly what I'd like to see implemented. https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/for ... 4--f1.html

Specifically "I'm in favour of the greener engines," said Mosley. "The mistake was not saying to the big manufacturers that you can spend as much as you want on research but the maximum you can charge per season is something like three to four million pounds."

This somewhat balances things.

flyboy2160
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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MM is just another F1 2+2=5 non-businessman, non-engineer, planned economy bureaucratic tyrant: And why would an engine manufacturer bother to supply engines to customer teams when it loses a large amount of money with each sale? Oh, because Max told them to! The apple hasn't fallen far from the tree...

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djos
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Agreed, setting such a low cost cap on the engines for customers would have been smart but I suspect the reason it wasn't done was because the FIA hoped that independent engine commissioned like Cosworth and Pure would compete and at even 5 million euros per season they'd be bankrupted and or outperformed in very short order!
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djos
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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flyboy2160 wrote:MM is just another F1 2+2=5 non-businessman, non-engineer, planned economy bureaucratic tyrant: And why would an engine manufacturer bother to supply engines to customer teams when it loses a large amount of money with each sale? Oh, because Max told them to! The apple hasn't fallen far from the tree...
Serious question: if the cost cap for customer teams is 1 million per engine, with 5 engines allowed per season, how is there no profit for the oem?

They are doing the r&d for their factory team already, surely the bom would easily be half that price?
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Richard
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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flyboy2160 wrote: why would an engine manufacturer bother to supply engines to customer teams when it loses a large amount of money with each sale?
Engine suppliers don't join F1 to make a profit, they do it for the prestige of putting engines in cars. They decide what budget they can afford and then work out how to spend that money on R&D plus production plus prize money. If the production income declines then they simply spend little less on R&D. As djos points out, its the marginal cost that counts, they'd still make a profit if the customer pays more than the marginal cost.

Anyway, that's just one example of how teams lower down the grid could be supported. The really big issue is that F1 has more money swilling around than ever before but teams are going bust. Clearly income needs to be more equitable down the grid. People can complain about the evils of command economies, but all sports are command economies with central planners determining income distribution and the rules of competition. Currently the central planning in FOM is heading for trouble and something needs to change.

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diffuser
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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flyboy2160 wrote:MM is just another F1 2+2=5 non-businessman, non-engineer, planned economy bureaucratic tyrant: And why would an engine manufacturer bother to supply engines to customer teams when it loses a large amount of money with each sale? Oh, because Max told them to! The apple hasn't fallen far from the tree...

I guess the only alternative will be to run 3 cars..... they might have to field a whole new car and driver for nothing?

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diffuser
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Since the CVC takes 50% of the cash off the top. They would need to be dismantled or purchased it. The going price seems to be $10B USD.

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Pierce89
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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langwadt wrote:
Facts Only wrote:A number of things are banned for safety rather than cost. Magnesium swarf for example has a nasty habit of bursting into flames which is especially dangerous when you are running CNC machines all night to meet race day deadlines for parts (which can affect teams and suppliers alike)
Titanium also burn quite well, even en nitrogen, and reacts with water producing hydrogen to make it worse
Titanium doesn't burn super duper easy like Mag, though. Magnesium can be lit off with a ciggarette lighter. Magnesium shavings are actually sold as a campfire starter.
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