Engine Unfreeze

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Post Reply
eyalynf1
6
Joined: 24 May 2011, 01:05

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

This is going to be a bit of a meander, but a cogent one I hope...

For me, the rules should derive from the following first principle:

Humans Racing Humans: Human piloted vehicles competing to complete a course in the least amount of time. In the year 2400, they will likely be flying or whatever, but it is still at it's core an athletic and intellectual competition. This means fittest+smartest = you win. All rules should seek to refine/limit the competition to these two areas and filter out as many externalities as possible. In my view, the most insidious externality is money and/or the profit motive. No communist diatribes from me, but at its purest, the goal is to advance the interests human motoring (it is the FIA F1 World Championship!), not make a mint for speculators (ahem CVC) and multinational corporations. But the externalities most relevant to the engine discussion are the homologation and technical prescription rules.

Based on this first principle, I believe many of the current rules/restrictions should be eliminated (obviously maintain safety based rules, except those which entail performance limits). This includes the engine freeze. As a practical matter, you have to honor existing contracts and procedures for rule changes, but unequivocally the engine freeze should be eliminated because It arrests the progress of human motoring. We don't have engine freezes in the auto industry, let's not have it in our motorsport.

Teams should be able to use whatever powerplant they like, with only the lightest of touches on restrictions. A fuel limit (this will result in an emission limit, so no emission limit required). Weight and dimensions. That's it. This would explode innovation and help motoring companies advance human motoring. Teams could use less expensive, older tech in optimized ways to race inexpensively and reliably. We will be entertained. Teams to could use new tech to race test there R&D products. The will dominate and/or fail in equal measure. We will be entertained. Advancing human motoring means facilitating this great sifting of ideas through cost/performance competition. The budget issues will sort themselves out, as the most cost effective power plant solution would work itself out without the rules imposing overly prescriptive technical costs that cannot be supported by the prize payout on offer.

...And as much as I am a Williams fan, I think customer chassis have to be a part of any future equation. Just looking at the Hamilton vs Rosberg battle this year lets you know that identical chassis still provide plenty of fodder for competition. A chassis is no more elemental to the Human vs Human competition than the engine, and we certainly have customer engines, don't we?

Richard
Moderator
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

[quote="GitanesBlondes"]Here's the bigger point too Richard, NASCAR has never claimed to be a true cutting edge series, which is what F1 has been claiming to be for awhile. [/quote]

Which is why F1 fans snigger about pushrod dinosaurs, and F1 would be in danger of looking similarly unsophisticated if it pulled the old V8 from the waste bin.

F1's brand is heavily dependent on glamour and an obsession with complexity and perceived sophistication. The ticked all the boxes with the new PU. Just the small matter of affordability for smallt eams was overlooked.

xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

Richard wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:Here's the bigger point too Richard, NASCAR has never claimed to be a true cutting edge series, which is what F1 has been claiming to be for awhile.
Which is why F1 fans snigger about pushrod dinosaurs, and F1 would be in danger of looking similarly unsophisticated if it pulled the old V8 from the waste bin.
Oh that's easy, just give them back the free Rpm, real screamers at 20k+, oh mama...xcitement is back at last!
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

User avatar
djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

Richard wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:Here's the bigger point too Richard, NASCAR has never claimed to be a true cutting edge series, which is what F1 has been claiming to be for awhile.
Which is why F1 fans snigger about pushrod dinosaurs, and F1 would be in danger of looking similarly unsophisticated if it pulled the old V8 from the waste bin.
Nailed it, F1 should seriously adopt the WEC style of energy limits only but with a few caveats to stop a massive spending war eg.

1/ max OEM dev budget of 50 Million per year - policed by having a separate "F1 engine company" setup and open books with no funny accounting practices allowed (eg no free loan engineers or below market materials supply costs, free 2-way IP licensing between the parent and child companies would have to be mandatory tho)

2/ Max cost of customer PU package of 5 Million Euros per year including support etc

3/ Customers must be provided with the current factory spec components and software through the entire season

this sort of thing IMO would keep things sensible and the transfer of technology back to the parent OEM would not be inhibited.

Anyway, enuf of this practical nonsense, lets see what stupidity we get from the teams and Bernie from their incessant politicking! :roll:
"In downforce we trust"

User avatar
GitanesBlondes
26
Joined: 30 Jul 2013, 20:16

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

Richard wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:Here's the bigger point too Richard, NASCAR has never claimed to be a true cutting edge series, which is what F1 has been claiming to be for awhile.
Which is why F1 fans snigger about pushrod dinosaurs, and F1 would be in danger of looking similarly unsophisticated if it pulled the old V8 from the waste bin.

F1's brand is heavily dependent on glamour and an obsession with complexity and perceived sophistication. The ticked all the boxes with the new PU. Just the small matter of affordability for smallt eams was overlooked.
Oh you mean the same F1 fans who can't watch a F1 race unless there are loads of overtakes no matter how unskilled the overtakes are? :lol:

The problem with the F1 V8's is they were never allowed to be developed for years, that's why they seem unsophisticated.

Imagine had they been allowed to be developed?

What a thought eh?
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Vettel Maggot
4
Joined: 28 Jan 2014, 08:30

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

Richard wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:Here's the bigger point too Richard, NASCAR has never claimed to be a true cutting edge series, which is what F1 has been claiming to be for awhile.
Which is why F1 fans snigger about pushrod dinosaurs, and F1 would be in danger of looking similarly unsophisticated if it pulled the old V8 from the waste bin.

F1's brand is heavily dependent on glamour and an obsession with complexity and perceived sophistication. The ticked all the boxes with the new PU. Just the small matter of affordability for smallt eams was overlooked.
What are you talking about? I drive a pushrod 'dinosaur' car and I like it. NASCAR is NASCAR. Take it or leave it. You really think all the 'glamour' comes from turbo engines that sound like vacuum cleaners? The 'glamour' comes from the slurries and celebs that hang around the pits and the yachts in Monaco. No one outside of this forum cares about how 'sophisticated' the engines are. Average Joe wants speed, noise and action. Pretty much NASCAR.

astracrazy
31
Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

xpensive wrote:
astracrazy wrote:if we ever, and its unlikely, go back to the v8's i hardly doubt it will go back to what we had prior to 2014. F1 would try and keep some face. Every effort will be made to make it as fuel efficient as possible. We'd have the same max 100kg and the current ers system. All which will obviously cost to get the V8 to fit that profile. Again we could end up with 1 manufacturer doing it better and along come the arguments we have now.
What on the earth for, these are supposed to be racing engines?
I know. But as i said after i'd imagine they would still keep the 100kg rule so they would need to make them more fuel efficient. If f1 takes the step back to the v8's, i cant see they would take a complete step back with the fuel efficiency as well.

i'm not saying i want that. but i can't see f1 will just go back to how it was before

Sevach
1043
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

GitanesBlondes wrote: The problem with the F1 V8's is they were never allowed to be developed for years, that's why they seem unsophisticated.

Imagine had they been allowed to be developed?

What a thought eh?
If anything they were detuned from their 2006 selves, going from 20000+ rpm to 18000.

Harsha
12
Joined: 01 Dec 2012, 14:35

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

I think V8 with 2006 rules and developing them from 22K Rpm limit and from that point making them fuel efficient will be so good see with current state of development.

xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

Vettel Maggot wrote: ...
What are you talking about? I drive a pushrod 'dinosaur' car and I like it. NASCAR is NASCAR. Take it or leave it. You really think all the 'glamour' comes from turbo engines that sound like vacuum cleaners? The 'glamour' comes from the slurries and celebs that hang around the pits and the yachts in Monaco. No one outside of this forum cares about how 'sophisticated' the engines are. Average Joe wants speed, noise and action. Pretty much NASCAR.
Truer words never spoken. =D>
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Richard
Moderator
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

Note I said "perceived sophistication". The F1 brand was built on a perception of exotica such as carbon fibre and beryllium. A sense of crazy complexity created by obsessive geeks and mavericks simply because they can. The current PU perfectly fits that image.

To wander vaguely back towards the topic, allowing staged developments would reinforce the impression of being at the cutting edge, and sometimes the bleeding edge. It might get us back towards the excitement of the eagerly awaited mid-season upgrade. In a way that might be better than imperceptible incremental updates. It'd also be cheaper for the customer teams.

User avatar
ian_s
13
Joined: 03 Feb 2009, 14:44
Location: Medway Towns

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

Harsha wrote:I think V8 with 2006 rules and developing them from 22K Rpm limit and from that point making them fuel efficient will be so good see with current state of development.
the engines were already efficient for what they were, but to make them more efficient means either reducing the rev limit, or reducing the capacity, both of which would reduce the power and the noise

User avatar
GitanesBlondes
26
Joined: 30 Jul 2013, 20:16

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

Richard wrote:The F1 brand was built on a perception of exotica such as carbon fibre and beryllium. A sense of crazy complexity created by obsessive geeks and mavericks simply because they can. The current PU perfectly fits that image.
In your opinion it fits that image.

Kind of hard to fit that image when the design parameters were so strict that it forced everyone into the same funnel for the most part. They didn't create these engines in a "simply because they can" manner...if they did, they'd be putting out outrageous power numbers for starters.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

User avatar
Juzh
161
Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

Harsha wrote:I think V8 with 2006 rules and developing them from 22K Rpm limit and from that point making them fuel efficient will be so good see with current state of development.
V8s never revved to 22k.

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Engine Unfreeze

Post

Juzh wrote:
Harsha wrote:I think V8 with 2006 rules and developing them from 22K Rpm limit and from that point making them fuel efficient will be so good see with current state of development.
V8s never revved to 22k.
They probably can by current technology.
#AeroFrodo

Post Reply