The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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Cold Fussion
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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agip wrote:Here's how it could look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4-3wh776Y8
The rolling shutter is pretty awful though.

flattyre
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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Alex Wurz has got the ball rolling on improving the use of cameras in F1, both onboard and trackside:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... 1486829953

Maybe it is time to introduce the subtle improvements mentioned in this thread? We can only hope they are listening!

flattyre
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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I just noticed there's a problem with the videos in the opening post, so here they are again as links (it seems like I can't edit the opening post):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9yoPqvyvro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DameemcGkgs

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hollus
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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I edited the openoing post now, so that the first video plays OK. The second is banned on copyright grounds, I found a surrogate that plays and edited it in.

Anyways, any improvement in 2019?

2002:


2019:


2013:


Quite an improvement from 2013 with the lower camera, IMO, specially in the slow sections. A bit more sky and they might get the old feeling back.
Rivals, not enemies.

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hollus
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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Even better, Lewis's pole lap from today. He even has to wrestle the car. I get this fast forward feeling...

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roon
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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Image

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JordanMugen
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Re: A subtle change that would make the world of difference

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Richard wrote:
29 Sep 2014, 20:52
Widescreen is meant to give a bigger picture, not smaller #-o
Only if you use an anamorphic lens like Cinemascope type systems, to compress the field of view laterally onto the 4:3 film or 4:3 sensor. :wink:

For television however, I think it is far more common to use conventional image lenses, and then simply crop off the top and bottom of the image!

Canon television box lens with 122x 'superzoom' on television outside broadcast digital camera for sports:
Image
Image

Anamorphic cinema lens on Panavision 35mm film camera:
Image

When a television "box" type camera lens costs $200,000+ in exchange for its flawless performance across a staggering 8.6mm-1000mm range of focal lengths -- it's obviously out of the question to abandon this well-established custom. It's too ingrained. These television cameras are so much more flexible then anamorphic film cameras. The sheer range of zoom at which these television leness can hold perfect focus, even while changing zoom, is frankly staggering and very impressive (no wonder they cost so much!).

Note: Canon DigiSuper 122x superzoom box lens specifications found here... https://www.canon.com.au/-/media/images ... sheet.ashx

Obviously the onboard cameras use much cheaper and more basic cameras -- and it shows! Yes, the onboard cameras could easily have a custom anamorphic lens fitted! =D> Perhaps they should?

F1 onboard camera:
Image
Source: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/formula ... ecclestone
Cold Fussion wrote:
01 Oct 2014, 08:31
agip wrote:Here's how it could look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4-3wh776Y8
The rolling shutter is pretty awful though.
Shutter speed is too fast?? ...somebody thought motion blur is bad? :roll: Or that's the default settings of the GoPro/ActionCam!? :wink:
Last edited by JordanMugen on 28 May 2019, 16:31, edited 3 times in total.

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JordanMugen
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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strad wrote:
30 Sep 2014, 01:08
One camera can cover the whole straight and often with pan, around a corner.. much cheaper for them but it robs us of the sensation of speed.
Doesn't seem that cheap given the price of these Canon & Sony superzoom box lenses! Though they do not seem to be what FOM uses.

These are what FOM use now:
Image
Image

The lenses seem rather puny compared to those box lens behemoths... that's a pity. :cry:

The Grass Valley camera itself seems to be a conventional 2/3" triple (i.e., red, green, blue) sensor "B4-mount" television camera... https://www.grassvalley.com/products/ldx_86_4k/
Here's a comparison of the Grass Valley 2/3" outside broadcast camera, to the (seemingly more common?) Sony 2/3" outside broadcast camera... https://www.thebroadcastbridge.com/cont ... production

No idea why the lenses are so puny!?

Link: Harry Thorpe from Canon USA explains the difference between studio box lenses (which TV stations seem to use for outside broadcast sporting events anyway!?) and portable lenses... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BUmmWXL1xM
Gaz. wrote:
30 Sep 2014, 01:01
I feel a bit cheated now with my 'widescreen' tv...
The 16:9 ratio was chosen very carefully as the average of the 4:3 Academy ratio (the same ratio as analogue broadcast television) and the ~21:9 ratio of more modern movies. The 16:9 ratio minimises the black bar size regardless of whether you are watching an old TV show, or a post-Cinemascope movie. Of course, made for TV or made for web content natively at 16:9 fits perfectly.

Nonserviam85
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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They should ask FujiTV in Japan what TV filters and lenses they were using back in the day. I remember the 80's early 90's coverage and it was amazing compared to the European races, the feeling of speed was just amazing.

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Andres125sx
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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As a drone racer I have some experience looking through a camera, and FOV is by far the most important factor. When you change the lens and FOV you need some time to adapt, higher FOV means things wich are far comes to you pretty fast because you only see them when they´re close, while narrower FOV let you see things wich are far sooner, so you see it coming to you slower and the sense of speed changes dramatically. This added to the sides of the screen wich are closer to you because the higher FOV let you see things wich are just at your sides instead of some meters in front of you change the sense of speed

This video is a good example about how higher FOV does affect speed feeling
agip wrote:
01 Oct 2014, 01:15
Here's how it could look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4-3wh776Y8
Even when rolling shutter is too bad, that´s easily solved with a damped mount, or with a better camera with global shutter instead of rolling shutter

Probably frame rate is also playing a role as the old video looks jumpy so probably a slower frame rate. But FOV is the main difference, it´s much much narrower with current cameras, even when 16:9 vs the old 4:3 is masking this difference (higher horizontal FOV for same lens), wich is the reason current cameras are headed downwards compared to the old ones, much narrower FOV wich in the horizonal axis doesn´t look that much narrower, but in the vertical axis the difference is a lot more obvious so they need to compensate pointing a bit more downward

Basically with narrower FOV you can see better, but the feeling changes so much I think they´ve ruined the great feeling of onboard cameras, they look slow even at 350km/h! :o

Cold Fussion
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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JordanMugen wrote:
28 May 2019, 16:09
...
Are you sure FOM are using the LDX 86? The specs say it has a global shutter yet when you watch the broadcast and they do a fast pan it very much looks like there are rolling shutter artifacts.
Andres125sx wrote:
29 May 2019, 08:11
Even when rolling shutter is too bad, that´s easily solved with a damped mount, or with a better camera with global shutter instead of rolling shutter
You can solve the jello effect with a damped mount but you can't solve the rolling shutter induced 'distortion'.

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Andres125sx
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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With a damped mount, no, but with global shutter, yes, you solve both at the same time

Cold Fussion
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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Andres125sx wrote:
31 May 2019, 18:43
With a damped mount, no, but with global shutter, yes, you solve both at the same time
No consumer level action camera has a global as far as i'm aware. I've never found any real information on what the T-bar camera is in F1 but I would assume that it has a global shutter sensor.

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Andres125sx
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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I´d say F1 can purchase cameras wich are above consumer level, I also think they´re global shutter, they only need to put a much wider lens in

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Juzh
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Re: The thrill of speed: influence of the camera

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fom onboard cams are about 50k. Sky did a piece on them not so long ago

https://streamable.com/lhrga