Would a covered cockpit have helped Bianchi ?

[Andres125sx]

If you make the cockpit LMP sized (like they did with the delta wing) then you really have an LMP car with open front and rear wheels, I think the only question is can we make it safe w/o resorting to this.
I believe many are hesitant to see F1 become so close to LMP.

I think that´s the problem, some people is afraid F1 may lose its identity and become too similar to LMP.

Question is, what´s more important, identity or safety?

[bdr529]

A few of years old but still gives a good look inside the Audi lmp and Sauber for comparison

[turbof1]

About the cockpit: the issue is that you are dealing with a single seater car with a much narrower cockpit. It's more difficult to have enough safety measures to keep the driver safe at an impact, yet also allow systems in the exact same position to allow a quick escape. for instance a driver in lmp would simply open his door when the car is upside down. In F1 that's not possible.

You are in other words comparing apples with oranges.

Why?

Top series of single seater cars... what´s so different to make it apples to oranges?

Any reason the same cockpit (even if it´s narrower) couldn´t be opened exactly the same way they do in lmp1?

Fair enough; I'm not a F1 purist myself so I can definitely life with a more lmp-esque look, especially if it improves safety. However, the difficult part lies in that you need to rewrite and redevelop monocoque and other rules. It's certainly not anything like copy paste a canopy on top and around the cockpit of your current F1 car. A complete redesign in that area will also bring along a huge cost to the teams.

About the narrower argument, I get what you mean and agree, but the closed cockpit purpose is not being part of the... sorry don´t know the term in english, the structure wich must absorb part of the energy of a crash. Its purpose would be deflecting any part, piece or whatever wich would impact driver´s helmet. For that purpose it doesn´t matter if it´s narrow and the canopy is close to the helmet.

That's not the issue. The issue is that the pilot needs to be able to exit safely and quickly the car. You don't want to solve one safety hazard by an other. In order to accomodate a side entry look the one in lmp, you'll need to make space for it. Again it's not like slap on a canopy and be done with it, and you still will have to deal with the question how far you want to go with rewriting the rule book.

[Manoah2u]

i've made a possibile idea. don't know if it's an solution, but it has practicability.

not my intention to go back to the 70's generally, but i've used it merely to show how small adaptations back then already resolve a big part of the issues, especially because the use of (real) windscreens back then.

you could take that windscreen and simply enlarge it by a good factor that will be enough to dodge away heavy objects.
technology has improved by lightyears regarding (transparant) polymer materials. i'm sure there is material available that is strong enough to withstand the strongest of blows and a thin carbon arc at the top of the windscreen would probably grant it extra rigidity to withstand even more force.

the frontal fin is there to allow a driver to escape even when upside down by maintaining enough distance so the windscreen can be moved forward (if that's actually neccesarily) to prevent getting locked in. obviously the top needs to be open.

despite knowning the effects of head injury, i however still maintain that the affairs leading to the actual crash like bianchi are the real deals that need solving, rather then just slamming on something on a car. I also maintain that i'm of the opinion that windscreens like this causes visability issues for the driver thanks to hot sticky tires, sand and oil.
I know a pitstop would clean quite a good margin but still i'm wondering whether it wouldn't cause a big effect without a wiper. anyway, if it saves drivers, it's to be taken with a smile.

anyway check these impressions, i've included a modern-shaped front to show it can also apply to modern cars.

[SimRacer]

delete please

[Andres125sx]

Fair enough; I'm not a F1 purist myself so I can definitely life with a more lmp-esque look, especially if it improves safety. However, the difficult part lies in that you need to rewrite and redevelop monocoque and other rules. It's certainly not anything like copy paste a canopy on top and around the cockpit of your current F1 car. A complete redesign in that area will also bring along a huge cost to the teams.

True but nothing serious, rules are rewritten often and there´s not problem.

There will be some costs, that´s true also, improving safety always suppose some added cost

The issue is that the pilot needs to be able to exit safely and quickly the car. You don't want to solve one safety hazard by an other. In order to accomodate a side entry look the one in lmp, you'll need to make space for it

In LMP the doors only use the upper part of the side, and that part is open in current F1 cars, no need to make any space I think

[theblackangus]

Fair enough; I'm not a F1 purist myself so I can definitely life with a more lmp-esque look, especially if it improves safety. However, the difficult part lies in that you need to rewrite and redevelop monocoque and other rules. It's certainly not anything like copy paste a canopy on top and around the cockpit of your current F1 car. A complete redesign in that area will also bring along a huge cost to the teams.

True but nothing serious, rules are rewritten often and there´s not problem.

There will be some costs, that´s true also, improving safety always suppose some added cost

The issue is that the pilot needs to be able to exit safely and quickly the car. You don't want to solve one safety hazard by an other. In order to accomodate a side entry look the one in lmp, you'll need to make space for it

In LMP the doors only use the upper part of the side, and that part is open in current F1 cars, no need to make any space I think

https://robertblanshard.files.wordpress ... di-fap.jpg

The internal dimensions are not the same. It would be much harder to get out of the F1 car if you had to go sideways unless you raised the roof height considerably and made the vehicle wider. Have you guys ever sat in a small single seater? You nearly HAVE to go up just to get your legs to the point where they can be extracted. LMP cars have extra room to allow for this where single seater cockpits are nearly vacuum sealed around the pilot where LMP cars are "two" (seat and a half =) seaters.

It would be trivial to say - F1 use an LMP cockpit, but that does that really do? Makes everyone completely start from scratch for the aero and supporting systems. Makes the cars way to similar to LMP cars, and likely will make the F1 cars less extereme from the additional weigh of the cockpit + extra bodywork to help absorb the impact from all the new weight added. Essentially you will end up with an LMP car with open wheels.... so why even have two series then? Just make F1 a WEC Class.

It will take a considerable amount of work to make a safe F1 style closed cockpit and keep differentiation between the series.

[Andres125sx]

If you make the cockpit LMP sized (like they did with the delta wing) then you really have an LMP car with open front and rear wheels, I think the only question is can we make it safe w/o resorting to this.
I believe many are hesitant to see F1 become so close to LMP.

I think that´s the problem, some people is afraid F1 may lose its identity and become too similar to LMP.

Question is, what´s more important, identity or safety?

Motorsports is dangerous. If safety is more important than anything else then we've no other alternative but to outright ban motorsports once and for all.

That's certainly what this full-on-socialist-risk-averse-nanny-state view of the world will ultimately lead us to.

Socialist risk averse nanny state? OMG what did you smoke? It´s safety what makes posible cars this fast, cornering at 4G and doing 350km/h topspeed is only posible thanks to current high standards in safety. Without safety improvements the list of death drivers would be way longer and rules would have never allowed cars this fast.

That´s what you want? Slower cars and more deaths?

[FW17]

What are the tests that fia institute on a LMP cockpit? Did they fire a tyre at it? Did they turn it upside down and set the battery inside the cockpit on fire?

Why are they so stuck on the traditional look?


High windscreen could be a starter. Till a few years ago they had windscreen|gurney flap about an inch tall, if the same is about 6 inches tall it should protect against flying debris etc but not fence poles and other cars.

[Andres125sx]

It would be trivial to say - F1 use an LMP cockpit, but that does that really do? Makes everyone completely start from scratch for the aero and supporting systems.

Yes getting rid of the turbulence created by an open cockpit and reducing drag would be a problem for the aero department

About the added weight, I think the aero improvement would compensate it by far.

[turbof1]

It would be trivial to say - F1 use an LMP cockpit, but that does that really do? Makes everyone completely start from scratch for the aero and supporting systems.

Yes getting rid of the turbulence created by an open cockpit and reducing drag would be a problem for the aero department

About the added weight, I think the aero improvement would compensate it by far.

It will have a knock on effect on everything rearwards. Even though better, it still results binning everything you know in that area and start over. I think you are oversimplifying the problem. We had rule changes before, but not of this magnitude.

I believe in a closed cockpit, but not if it is rushed. A good solid solution will take a few years to develop by the fia, and the teams will need a couple of years as well to integrate it.

[bhall II]

65 years

988 Championship drivers
1519 total drivers
(source)
?,??? test drivers

927 races
(source)

~278,000 total race km
~211,000,000 - 422,000,000 driver-km, races
???,???,??? - ?,???,???,??? driver-km, testing
(broad estimates of possibilities)

26 race fatalities
51 total fatalities
(source)

Beyond the headlines, and with the understanding that 100% safety is 100% impossible, is there really a pressing need to make drastic changes to the sport?

It's just a question that I think should be asked.

[siskue2005]

this seems to b a good compromise

[Just_a_fan]

Beyond the headlines, and with the understanding that 100% safety is 100% impossible, is there really a pressing need to make drastic changes to the sport?

It's just a question that I think should be asked.

It's an excellent question and the stats show that, although motorsport is dangerous, F1 is actually pretty safe in real terms considering the speeds/energies involved.

Everyone is focussing on the car but the reality is that Bianchi's accident was the result of excess speed in the conditions. Also, the crane shouldn't have been out until the cars were behind the safety car. The new virtual safety car system should reduce the risk of an Bianchi-style incident even further. The simplest solution would just be to stop the race when it rains.

With every safety-driven rule change, the most important question is: what are the unintended consequences of this change? It is possible that you replace one unlikely mode of injury/death with another unlikely mode. The result is that safety isn't improved but we just end up with different ways to hurt people. Everyone feels great - they've done something - until the next incident.

In the Wilson incident, a simple tether connecting the nose cone to the chassis would have prevented his death. A simple solution. The tether would need to prevent the nose folding back and hitting the original driver, of course, or we would have an unintended consequence. We know tethers work because they've been used for wheels for a few years and have been very successful. Unintended consequence of the wheel tether was seen in Perez's recent roll in Hungery; the tethered wheel got under the nose and acted as a spring to catapult the car in to the roll. Had the wheel been free to fly away, the car would have just spun. The free wheel might have hit someone else though.

Repeat after me:
Unintended consequences.
Unintended consequences.
Unintended consequences.
Unintended consequences.
Unintended consequences.

"MOTOR SPORT IS DANGEROUS" it says on the ticket. It is, and it always will be.

[Just_a_fan]

It would be trivial to say - F1 use an LMP cockpit, but that does that really do? Makes everyone completely start from scratch for the aero and supporting systems.

Yes getting rid of the turbulence created by an open cockpit and reducing drag would be a problem for the aero department

About the added weight, I think the aero improvement would compensate it by far.

What about rain? A wiper on a highly curved screen is very difficult to implement. Perhaps hydrophilic coatings would be enough but what about oil on the screen hampering visibility? What about rubber debris stuck on the screen? Lots of other issues too. All things that need to be considered and accounted for.