VW Enters.................

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turbof1
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Re: VW Enters.................

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dans79 wrote:
Tim.Wright wrote:I think you will find that adding a defeat device in the code is breaking the law in a big way.
huh?

I don't do emissions tests, but the one time I saw them being done, the actual emissions coming out of the tail pipe where being tested, not data from the ecu. I find it damn hard to believe the ecu can tell when its emissions are being tested.
That's precisely the problem: the software is able to detect when a test is going on, cuts power and reduces the emissions to acceptable levels. When the test is not going on, the car will run with the advertised horsepower, but the associated emissions will be above what's allowed by the test.

It would be actually very simple to design an algorithm for a standarized test since it is done through specific actions in a very specific procedure. The defeat device would inmediately activate when the ECU measured when the gears, revs, etc. would go through that very precise procedure. I think I'm correct to assume these tests are done in a garage and not on the open road; the latter would inmediately solve the problem.

What I don't know is if the EPA does not monitor ECU data at the same time. On the hand I want to say it's obvious they haven't done that, on the other hand it would be too appaling they leave such a weakness open in very tightly controlled test. Either they aren't reading the ECU data, or the data gets transferred around a secondary ECU.
#AeroFrodo

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Tim.Wright
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Re: VW Enters.................

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dans79 wrote:
Tim.Wright wrote:I think you will find that adding a defeat device in the code is breaking the law in a big way.
huh?

I don't do emissions tests, but the one time I saw them being done, the actual emissions coming out of the tail pipe where being tested, not data from the ecu. I find it damn hard to believe the ecu can tell when its emissions are being tested.
This is precisely what they are doing. I suspect it's something simple like any time it detects a connection to the OBD port (as is done during the homolgation tests to measure RPM, temps etc), it switches into test mode with the lower emmisions.
Not the engineer at Force India

rjsa
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Re: VW Enters.................

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Oh I wish WB was still here just to see him going nuts on this.

Edax
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Re: VW Enters.................

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Tim.Wright wrote:
dans79 wrote:
Tim.Wright wrote:I think you will find that adding a defeat device in the code is breaking the law in a big way.
huh?

I don't do emissions tests, but the one time I saw them being done, the actual emissions coming out of the tail pipe where being tested, not data from the ecu. I find it damn hard to believe the ecu can tell when its emissions are being tested.
This is precisely what they are doing. I suspect it's something simple like any time it detects a connection to the OBD port (as is done during the homolgation tests to measure RPM, temps etc), it switches into test mode with the lower emmisions.
Or it could measure the delta between front and rear wheel rotation. According to the EPA description it is more complex than that using a multitude of sensors.

Makes me think that it could be a performance mode which is unlocked when the driver drives more aggressive than during the testing. Would make sense if it is about horsepower. You wouldn't notice a performance loss when strolling along the highway, only when you floor it.

That would fit the description of the EPA. Not active during dyno testing. The wording "up to" also suggests that it is about emission maxima, not averages.

But it would be a bit more grey area than having a car that always exceeds standards except during a test.

sgth0mas
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Re: VW Enters.................

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Or it could measure the delta between front and rear wheel rotation. According to the EPA description it is more complex than that using a multitude of sensors.

Makes me think that it could be a performance mode which is unlocked when the driver drives more aggressive than during the testing. Would make sense if it is about horsepower. You wouldn't notice a performance loss when strolling along the highway, only when you floor it.

That would fit the description of the EPA. Not active during dyno testing. The wording "up to" also suggests that it is about emission maxima, not averages.

But it would be a bit more grey area than having a car that always exceeds standards except during a test.
No VW literally programmed the car to only pass the test when undergoing emissions testing. All other driving modes may fail emissions.

It would be like an F1 team having a different engine map in use during scrutineering, then changing to an illegal map for races.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... ions-cheat

"The Wolfsburg, Germany-based company admitted to fitting its U.S. diesel vehicles with software that turns on full pollution controls only when the car is undergoing official emissions testing, the Environmental Protection Agency said Friday."

Edax
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Re: VW Enters.................

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sgth0mas wrote:
No VW literally programmed the car to only pass the test when undergoing emissions testing. All other driving modes may fail emissions.

It would be like an F1 team having a different engine map in use during scrutineering, then changing to an illegal map for races.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... ions-cheat

"The Wolfsburg, Germany-based company admitted to fitting its U.S. diesel vehicles with software that turns on full pollution controls only when the car is undergoing official emissions testing, the Environmental Protection Agency said Friday."
I was referring to the text of the complaint by the EPA.

Jonnycraig
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Re: VW Enters.................

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VW has lost €15bn in value over the past two days alone. There's no chance they are coming into F1.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: VW Enters.................

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that reminds me of the huge fall in VW valuation when the people behind Porsche were successfully speculating in VW shares
and the adjustment when their activities totally backfired on them
etc etc

nothing just happens, someone makes it happen, and for some reason ?

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stuartpengs
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Re: VW Enters.................

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Jonnycraig wrote:VW has lost €15bn in value over the past two days alone. There's no chance they are coming into F1.
This.

A company that has lost 18% of its share value, facing possible astronomical fines, international investigation which now includes Europe, and has already had to set-aside over six billion Euros for potential litigation. You can pretty much forget VW entering F1 for a decade. Looks like Red Bull's phase 2 of operation F1 is now a dead end. Ferrari for the next two years, but I think it would have been the possible sale to VW in 2018 that would have been the incentive. Will they carry on now knowing customer Ferrari engines appear to be their only long-term option?

DaveW
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Re: VW Enters.................

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Tim.Wright wrote:I think you will find that adding a defeat device in the code is breaking the law in a big way.
Moons ago, one of the Big 3 recognized that EPA tests were conducted with the hood open, and added a transducer to detect an open hood, which allowed them to manipulate the engine control algorithm. That would be cheating.

Arguably, anything more subtle is actually a failure of the EPA test procedures. Engine control algorithms are becoming ever more sophisticated. That isn't going to change any time soon, so test and analysis procedures must accommodate those subtleties ("You can't do that, it makes a mockery of the EPA test" - Really?)

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dmjunqueira
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Re: VW Enters.................

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Bild said yesterday that Audi is decided to enter, just a few signatures missing...
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... EYqiAnenSA

Just sharing...I don't have an opinion about it.
Last edited by dmjunqueira on 22 Sep 2015, 18:54, edited 1 time in total.

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stuartpengs
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Re: VW Enters.................

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dmjunqueira wrote:Bild said yesterday that Audi is decided to enter, just a few signatures missing...
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... EYqiAnenSA

I think it should be underlined that this situation is extremely dynamic so any previously disclosed 'rumours' should be treated with extreme caution. They (VW) have just had to set aside what could conceivably amount to ten year's worth of F1 participation, engine development and team acquisition costs. All bets are off as far as any previously released, unsubstantiated rumours. There's even talk that the main driving force behind VW's participation in F1 - Martin Winterkorn, has the sword of Damocles uncomfortably close to his head!

Jonnycraig
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Re: VW Enters.................

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dmjunqueira wrote:Bild said yesterday that Audi is decided to enter, just a few signatures missing...
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... EYqiAnenSA
The same things have been said for the past decade.

Coincidentally I'm also only a few signatures away from entering F1. One from a backer, and one from a supplier. Fabulously vague term isn't it.

zeph
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Re: VW Enters.................

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I wouldn't bet against Eddie Jordan, but Martin Winterkorn is actually on record as saying F1 is not a part of VAG's plans, right after Piech was ousted and he became the new chairman.

I can't imagine them entering F1 right now with the EPA scandal, but in two years everybody will have forgotten it and it'll be business as usual.

The notion that this may be a ploy by Piech's people to devalue and buy up stock is an interesting one :o

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adrianjordan
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Re: VW Enters.................

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Of course entering F1 could be a nice piece of publicity once the epa scandal gets forgotten in the minds of the general public.
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