Formula One In 5 Years.

[Aesto]

All F1 needs to do is to allow every kind of propulsion method and energy recovery WITHOUT raising the minimum weight limit.

Just set
- a minimum weight limit of 650kg including driver
- a minimum weight limit for the driver including clothes and helmet (80kg), ballast to be added just behind his hip

The let the teams decide what the best(fastest) solution is. This way F1 will always use state of the art technology, light and high density batteries and electric motors, small and efficient ICE engines. If that isn't road relevant...

For the beginning DO NOT limit the electric energy/power, just say that all petrol/diesel/hydrogen energy you use during the race has to be onboard at the start of the race and cannot be higher than 5GJ.

Wouldn' this be great and a real challenge for all kind of engineers?

Admittedly, most of us here at F1T would be drooling incessantly at those kinds of regulations, but as far as everyone else is concerned... It would be insanely expensive and virtually guaranteed for one of the PU's to have a gigantic advantage over the others, hence pretty boring for most of the regular fans.

[Hail22]

Lauda pushing for 1000bhp cars and Arrivabene pushing for a "revolution" in Formula 1, can't say I disagree with him however I'd like to see his future draft blueprint of this future before making judgement.

Source: https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/for ... 1--f1.html

[MOWOG]

"I know it wouldn't be the usual way of going about things, but a global survey on the internet and via the TV companies would give us a real idea of what people want.

Ahh, Signore Arrivabene, it is good to see someone who still believes that fans are important involved at the highest levels of the sport, but you will learn, sir, and very soon, that the PTB in your business value the opinions of the fans about as much as they value our toenail clipppings.

May you always maintain that charming sense of naivete,sir. =D>

[Aesto]

"I know it wouldn't be the usual way of going about things, but a global survey on the internet and via the TV companies would give us a real idea of what people want.

Ahh, Signore Arrivabene, it is good to see someone who still believes that fans are important involved at the highest levels of the sport, but you will learn, sir, and very soon, that the PTB in your business value the opinions of the fans about as much as they value our toenail clipppings.

May you always maintain that charming sense of naivete,sir. =D>

Internet surveys make any statistician's toenails curl, they are completely unreliable

[Sombrero]

May be Formula One is gone by then...

[kooleracer]

BMW has announced that ALL of its cars, including Rolls Royce and SUV's, [except MINIs and 1 Series] will be electrics or plug in hybrids with a front and rear electric motor. Engines will be strictly for range extender duty and as such will not require turbocharging or variable valve systems. No 14 speed or DSG transmissions, either. There will be no central driveshaft or rear differential.

So my question to you is this: IF Formula One pretends to be "relevant" to production cars and if production cars are all going to be electric or phev's in 5 years, what possible reason would any engine manufacturer have for getting involved with Formula One now? And what reason would any current engine manufacturer have for staying in the sport?

Even Bernie cannot twang his magic twanger and prevent the future from happening. To quote Robert Zimmerman of Hibbing Minnesota: "There's a battle outside and it's ragin'. It will soon shake your windows and rattle your walls, for the times, they are a'changing."

Thoughts?

BMW is planning it for 2022? Sport (F1) is not only about technology, otherwise you could argue why would there still be sport like swimming or archery? F1 is entertainment just like any other sport. BMW will still sell gasoline cars in America,Russia and China. This new engine won't mean that gasoline engines are obsolete. The infrastructure for electric driving is in its infancy. Electric driving for the mass is still some 25-50 years away. Because of infrastructure and massive investments that are needed to go from a gasoline infrastructure to a electric one. F1 has cutting edge hybrid technology at the moment. So F1 has proven that it can adapt to the environment if needs be.

Also i'm betting on hydrogen fuel cell instead of full electric cars. The battery innovation is really slow, they are not getting smaller and charging time is still to long for practical use.

[Manoah2u]

Also i'm betting on hydrogen fuel cell instead of full electric cars. The battery innovation is really slow, they are not getting smaller and charging time is still to long for practical use.

Hydrogen fuel cell is very interesting, yes, however it remains unstable and unpredictable and a potential collision hazard, even though technology has advanced incredibly much. Still, F1 is a high-collision-risk and is aimed rather at driver protection then componant protection. I therefor doubt fuel cell will be their 'aim', especially if you'd concider commercial usability of batteries compared to immediately step into fuel cells.

you can have years of battery moneymaking before stepping into fuel cell moneymaking. Go straight ahead into fuel cells and you miss a big money source.

Battery innovation is slow for a reason; money. With enough effort and research, they can make batteries which can last for loooong. Instead, it's much more viable to have e-car batteries run out of life in 5 years so the buyer will HAVE to buy a new pack for almost 10.000 euros.

Meanwhile, battery loading technology can improve by a insane margin.

Interestingly, there are ways to do a fast-charge. There are actually fast-charge stations around, but there is a even more interesting one; remote fast-charging. They achieve this by sending 'a signal' through a high frequency.
They do have to aim this signal very carefully, as it is highly damaging for biological material, and if not properly used can even damage electric materials.

In other words, you could re-introduce fueling through remote battery loading. if you'd want that. It would not apply to hybrids though.

[Jonnycraig]

May be Formula One is gone by then...

Formula E hope to be running wireless recharging by then so 90 minute races without car changes.

Considering we've seen more racing in 4 FE races than in the whole of F1 2014, I know where my viewership will be.

[Manoah2u]

May be Formula One is gone by then...

Formula E hope to be running wireless recharging by then so 90 minute races without car changes.

Considering we've seen more racing in 4 FE races than in the whole of F1 2014, I know where my viewership will be.

more racing in 4 FE races compared to F1?

[Andres125sx]

Battery innovation is slow for a reason; money. With enough effort and research, they can make batteries which can last for loooong.

And that´s exactly current status, manufacturers know how important EV´s will be in little time and how much money this sector will move

There´s a reason for almost every manufacturer introducing to EV´s lately

Instead, it's much more viable to have e-car batteries run out of life in 5 years so the buyer will HAVE to buy a new pack for almost 10.000 euros.

Toyota guarantee their batteries for 10 years

And new battery techonolgies will reduce battery cost in no less than 70%

Today they use expensive materials, next generation batteries will use disposal materials (sulfur) or simply free ones (air) will lithium being 100% renewable so closed loop recycling is posible


With cheaper battteries that make posible EVs have same or even more mileage than ICEs, how long do you think ICEs will continue being manufactured?

Who would prefer an engine with tons of pieces wich make it prone to fail, that needs a lot of maintenance, that pollute and have a limited lifespan compared to a maintenance free electric motor with no failures, no pollution, no vibrations, no noise, and an unlimited lifespan only conditioned to the battery lifespan but when replaced will make your car work exactly same as brand new?

ICE have an expiring date, like it or not, maybe not in 5 years, but in 5 years people will start realicing how much better EV are compared to ICEs

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/12 ... ir-battery

The main thing, though, is that lithium-air energy density is a lot higher than conventional lithium-ion batteries: The max energy density of lithium-air batteries is theorized to be around 12 kWh/kg, some 15 times greater than li-ion — and more importantly, comparable to gasoline.

Comparable to gasoline with electric motors being more than double or even triple more efficient, so range will be more than double or triple than current ICEs, wich is the only problem of current EVs, so once these batteries development is finished, ICE will be obsolet

[Tim.Wright]

Who would prefer an engine with tons of pieces wich make it prone to fail, that needs a lot of maintenance, that pollute and have a limited lifespan compared to a maintenance free electric motor with no failures, no pollution, no vibrations, no noise, and an unlimited lifespan only conditioned to the battery lifespan but when replaced will make your car work exactly same as brand new?

I think claiming electric powertrains have an unlimited lifespan, never fail and require no maintenance is probably a bit of an exaggeration.

[MOWOG]

With respect to the high cost of batteries, some of us older guys remember some other automotive bits that used to be priced above the reach of most drivers. Here's a partial list:

dual overhead cam engines

aluminum engine blocks and heads

5 speed transmissions

electronic fuel injection

The technology that comes standard on the lowliest Hyundai Accent today would have given us car guys wet dreams when we were teenagers! [-o<

The prospect of selling millions and millions of units to millions and millions of buyers will drive the prices down. Someday, we'll be buying our new battery packs at WalMart and fussing about why it takes 15 whole minutes to install a simple battery!

[toraabe]

Or they can take the Mercedes 500I engine and redevelop it into F1.
Simple push rod engine turbo that's it .. Pure power and tourqe like trucks

http://www.fanmercedesbenz.com/1994-pen ... 3-indycar/

[Andres125sx]

Who would prefer an engine with tons of pieces wich make it prone to fail, that needs a lot of maintenance, that pollute and have a limited lifespan compared to a maintenance free electric motor with no failures, no pollution, no vibrations, no noise, and an unlimited lifespan only conditioned to the battery lifespan but when replaced will make your car work exactly same as brand new?

I think claiming electric powertrains have an unlimited lifespan, never fail and require no maintenance is probably a bit of an exaggeration.

Ok a bit of an exaggeration, but only a bit

An electric motor, or a brushless motor to be more precise, only suffer wear at the bearings, so just with a bearing replacement you have a brand new motor even if it is 20 years old and has been working for more than 50k hours

The electronic speed controller is that, electronic, doesn´t suffer wear either

It´s only the battery what will decrease perfomance with use, but if you replace it, the whole powertrain will work exactly the same as when it was brand new. Today that´s an expensive replacement, but new batteries are improving costs as much as energy density


And neither of these components require any maintenance, nothing at all, no oil to change, no turbo to fail, no parts suffering wear and decreasing perfomance until someday it fails, no filters to clean/change....

And that´s comparing normal setups, do we compare the maintenance of a racing setup? I´ll save ICE´s of that humilliation

Maybe electric setups have no unlimited lifespan or are not 100% maintenance free (I´ve conveniently ignored cooling system), but comparing with ICEs... day and night


That´s the reason I think the only future for F1 is if FIA decide to continue pushing F1 and ignore FE, then it will someday become F1E and will have a future, but if FE continue its development I don´t see how F1 will be interesting for anyone apart of some vintage fans. Manufacturers at least will stop supporting F1 as soon as LiO batteries are completely developed and production cars stop using ICEs


ICE some day (not that far) will be seen as that old technology very prone to fail that required continue maintenance, wich produced tons of vibrations, a lot of smoke/pollution, was really noisy and had a limited lifespan.

[Tim.Wright]

Its clear electric drivetrains have a maintenance advantage over ICE engines...

But don't forget that motor coils, magnets and electrical cicuits are all subject to vibration, contamination and heat degredation over time. And their failure modes are quite difficult to predict. They don't suffer mechanical wear, but they do degrade over time.

Also, as long as they are using gearboxes, they will require maintenence too. Also the cooling system as you mentioned.