Alonso's Crash

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lebesset
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Joined: 06 Aug 2008, 14:00

Re: Alonso's Crash

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... crash.html

well well , FIA not to make an announcement , pretty clear then that they couldn't find any fault with the car or they would have been forced to do so , any defect involves not only McLaren but every other car on the track ; and McLaren could have allowed buton to drive the car if they could have found anything whether or not he felt it safe to do so having examined the telemetry
frankly I think alonso is in error in his belief , or should I say beliefs , first he said that the steering went heavy , later that it locked
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

Nickel
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Joined: 02 Jun 2011, 18:10
Location: London Mountain, BC

Re: Alonso's Crash

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I find it very strange no one has picked up on the "standard MRI medicine" comment. What is this stuff? They didn't give me any "medicine that makes you lose consciousness" for my MRI, or the emergency helicopter ride that went with it. I find these comments to be the most suspicious.

Any one have some idea what he might be talking about? The only thing I can think is the doctors were so worried about him they induced a coma, but this seems incredibly unlikely given the seeming absence if any serious injury.

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lkocev
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Joined: 25 Jan 2009, 08:34

Re: Alonso's Crash

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Nickel wrote:I find it very strange no one has picked up on the "standard MRI medicine" comment. What is this stuff? They didn't give me any "medicine that makes you lose consciousness" for my MRI, or the emergency helicopter ride that went with it. I find these comments to be the most suspicious.

Any one have some idea what he might be talking about? The only thing I can think is the doctors were so worried about him they induced a coma, but this seems incredibly unlikely given the seeming absence if any serious injury.
That's because I think it is horse manure what Fernando has said. Like yourself, I have been having emergency MRI's and CT scans and what not, I was administered methoxyflurane in my ambulance ride to hospital (I live in Victoria, Australia, that is the common analgesic inhaled through what is called the 'green whistle' here), then once at the hospital, both opiates morphine and oxycodone. These drugs are not used to induce unconsciousness, but manage pain, it just so happens that large amounts of them typically cause drowsiness, and at least in my case at that time, all I wanted to do was sleep. I expect that methoxyflurane was not administered to Fernando because it appears to only be in use here in Australia and New Zealand, and probably also because it appears to be quite toxic to both liver and kidneys (it probably helps that the only manufacturer of it in the world is here in Victoria as well, but I digress). So with that, I'm not sure what is standard practice for medical staff in Spain, but I can only assume that an opiate was administered, likely morphine. However I can't imagine the medical staff to be rushing to pin Fernando, in those circumstance best practice is sub-cutaneous injection, and they would have needed him out of the car to do that. So it is really difficult to say let alone guess what was used, but I would expect something was administered, for the purpose of pain management, an actual sedative to me seems like it would be avoided in those circumstances.

There can sometimes be a 'contrast medium' injected into the blood stream for an MRI, this is used so that vascular observations can be made (remember MRI is an acronym for Magnetic Resonance Imaging) and is the only think I can think of that is specifically used for that purpose. However, this is injected remotely DURING the MRI procedure, and more to the point, it doesn't induce sedation. Perhaps you have had the same experience Nickel, when I was injected the contrast medium, I had the immediate sensation that I was pissing my pants, which the technician warned me about (after the MRI was over I felt around my bollocks to check, but I was actually bone dry), but certainly not a sedative effect.

So for this reason I think Fernando is telling porky pies because there is no medication that is used to 'prime' a patient for an MRI, there is nothing that comes to my mind that would need to be administered well before and MRI. Keep in mind guys that it was likely Fernando was waiting for MRI facilities to become available at the hospital for an hour or so. There is no way that a contrast medium is being injected at a race track, when he is possibly hours away from the actual MRI. Of course it could just be ignorance, and lack of knowledge on the subject the reason that statement was made, but like I said, there is no drug that I know of that would be necessary to administer, an undefined amount of time before an MRI takes place.

Nickel
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Joined: 02 Jun 2011, 18:10
Location: London Mountain, BC

Re: Alonso's Crash

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I was also given a range of pain meds (fentanyl, morphine, oxy etc), most of which made me drowsy. However, it's important for context that I had a number of broken bones in very painful places. All medications administered leading up to the MRI had to do with pain. In fact, sedation would've been lovely as the cage over my fractured face had me freaking out a bit.

Coming at it from another angle, I have had concussions, a couple of which caused loss of consciousness of varying duration. In these cases, no other injury was present, similar (depending on who's telling the story) to Alonso. In these cases, No medication was given. In actual fact, in these cases, doctors were adamant that I should remain awake and lucid!

All this took place in Canada mind you. If anyone reading this lives in Spain and could shed some light on standard medical practice in cases like this, I think it would go a long way. Hopefully through general knowledge or medical practice, not because they went through the meat grinder :wink:

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lkocev
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Joined: 25 Jan 2009, 08:34

Re: Alonso's Crash

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For sure in your case Nickel rather large amounts of opiates would be necessary with multiple broken bones, sorry to hear you have been through the meat grinder like that. But there is the other effect of opiates, particularly morphine that helps with calming a person somewhat, so if you were 'freaking out' a little, it is helpful having morphine as it is effective to calm the adrenalin rush that people get sometimes in a nasty accident.

Fentanyl seems to be quite common in medical use across the north American continent, but I'm not sure that it is as common or if it is a 'standard issue' type pain management drug across Europe as well. If it was, it would offer the medical staff the ability to put a patch or have Fernando dissolve a lozenge in his mouth to administer it. I still doubt that though since the time taken until the onset of noticeable effect I would expect to be too long. In this case, if pain management was needed, I would really expect morphine to be used.

Sometimes in accidents where pain is not reported initially, morphine is administered anyhow to get a 'head start' on the onset of pain. This I believe is quite common, and it is actually what happened with me somewhat when I had my accident, the onset of pain was not instant, but when it started, it was quite nasty. So the possibility exists that he was administered morphine, or perhaps another opiate that is always kept in stock for this purpose.

There is sometimes a risk of stroke with concussion, and I'm not sure what medical recommendations are in Spain regarding this, but in my own accident I had concussion, and signs of stroke (slurred speech, sensation of 'pins and needles' in my left hand) and this did not deter the medical staff from administering opiate to control pain.

Again, I'm not sure what is standard practice in Spain, but sedatives seems strange to me because I understand they present considerably more risk than opiates do, and I agree with Nickel that most times with concussion, doctors encourage remaining 'awake and lucid'. I can't quite think of a reason why he would need to be sedated, and I get that Fernando Alonso is entitled to his medical privacy, but guys, there is no such a thing as 'normal MRI medications' at least to my knowledge anyhow.

Of course the possibility exists, that Fernando just happened to come by a member of medical staff that has an inclination to sedate patients, even if it is not entirely necessary. I would however, expect such a person to not be practicing medicine for a very long career.

I think Fernando would have been better off making no comment about the accident other than that he had passed the medical tests and is fit to race. I know that it was the talk of the paddock and everyone wanted to know, but what he has said is neither in line with McLaren's report, and not really in line with medical practice. So in my opinion he is talking garbage.

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Postmoe
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Joined: 23 Mar 2012, 16:57

Re: Alonso's Crash

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I doubt sedatives are given in a concussion case.

Had one, and the only thing you wanna do in those cases is to take a nap... which doctors will avoid at all costs.

Perhaps somebody told him he was being sedated, being perhaps a little bit agitated and confused, so now he wants to remember that. I feel he does not like the idea of media talking about his loss of consciousness.

In terms of protocol, I very much doubt medical staff in Spain not following it. If this country has something, it's good medical staff.

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FrukostScones
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Joined: 25 May 2010, 17:41
Location: European Union

Re: Alonso's Crash

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lebesset wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... crash.html

well well , FIA not to make an announcement , pretty clear then that they couldn't find any fault with the car or they would have been forced to do so , any defect involves not only McLaren but every other car on the track ; and McLaren could have allowed buton to drive the car if they could have found anything whether or not he felt it safe to do so having examined the telemetry
frankly I think alonso is in error in his belief , or should I say beliefs , first he said that the steering went heavy , later that it locked
you are free to believe this
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

aral
26
Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Alonso's Crash

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Nickel wrote:I find it very strange no one has picked up on the "standard MRI medicine" comment. What is this stuff? They didn't give me any "medicine that makes you lose consciousness" for my MRI, or the emergency helicopter ride that went with it. I find these comments to be the most suspicious.

Any one have some idea what he might be talking about? The only thing I can think is the doctors were so worried about him they induced a coma, but this seems incredibly unlikely given the seeming absence if any serious injury.
speculation does not do anybody any good. your comment about "emergency helicopter ride" is rather pointless. lessons have been learnt from previous incidences, and when the g force warning is visible, it is standard practice to use helicopter to ferry a driver to the hospital for check-up. what did you expect ? a clap on the back and a dismissory "tough luck, now walk back to the pits"?
alonso was given normal sedatives to make him comfortable and to avoid unneccessary or unhelpful movements which could have exacerbated any possible injury. it is the same thing as ambulance personell using a back board and head restraints after a normal road accident. better to be safe than sorry.

Nickel
9
Joined: 02 Jun 2011, 18:10
Location: London Mountain, BC

Re: Alonso's Crash

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gilgen wrote:
speculation does not do anybody any good. your comment about "emergency helicopter ride" is rather pointless. lessons have been learnt from previous incidences, and when the g force warning is visible, it is standard practice to use helicopter to ferry a driver to the hospital for check-up. what did you expect ? a clap on the back and a dismissory "tough luck, now walk back to the pits"?
alonso was given normal sedatives to make him comfortable and to avoid unneccessary or unhelpful movements which could have exacerbated any possible injury. it is the same thing as ambulance personell using a back board and head restraints after a normal road accident. better to be safe than sorry.
I think we misunderstand each other. I'm not at all questioning the validity of his helicopter ride.

I'm questioning his statement that he was given" normal medication to go in the helicopter and for medical exams " (his words).

He says he doesn't remember from 2 to 6. So, if true, the doctors blacked him out for 4 hours for a heli ride? Never heard of this before, and I'm suspicious if there is such a protocol. I did not receive any for my own ride... Also, in my place of work, helicopters are used regularly to remove injured clients from the mountains. No medications are given specific to this.

All I'm getting at is that it's suspicious, and not as normal as he'd have us believe. It's also not in the same ballpark as a spine board and collar. Drugs are generally avoided when possible IME.

langwadt
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Joined: 25 Mar 2012, 14:54

Re: Alonso's Crash

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this just keeps getting weirder, Peter Windsor says he's 100% sure Alonso was unconscious before he hit the wall but won't go into why he is so sure...

https://youtu.be/gQbaovX0ziQ?t=4m39s

aral
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Alonso's Crash

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nickel. what i am trying to say that in F1, there is a protocol that has to be followed, and even this was tightened up after jules's accident. personally, i find nothing unusual in alonso's treatment at the track.

aral
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Alonso's Crash

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langwadt wrote:this just keeps getting weirder, Peter Windsor says he's 100% sure Alonso was unconscious before he hit the wall but won't go into why he is so sure...

https://youtu.be/gQbaovX0ziQ?t=4m39s
and you believe everything that the infamous windy says?

Manoah2u
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Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Alonso's Crash

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wait, people actually take peter windsor serious?

i'm surprised he actually has work in F1, whatever form it may be - reporting even.
but windsor? I'd trust the decision and statements of a toddler with a magic 8 ball more than
mr. windsor, ever.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

langwadt
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Joined: 25 Mar 2012, 14:54

Re: Alonso's Crash

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Manoah2u wrote:wait, people actually take peter windsor serious?

i'm surprised he actually has work in F1, whatever form it may be - reporting even.
but windsor? I'd trust the decision and statements of a toddler with a magic 8 ball more than
mr. windsor, ever.
apart from being involved in the ufs1 train wreck is he any worse than the rest of the journalist?

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Alonso's Crash

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yes!
He is a smarmy piece of work.. always trying to promote himself as more than he is.
His only claim to fame is that he was riding shotgun with Sir Frank when he had his wreck.
How is it this hasn't been locked yet?
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