will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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Phil wrote:Heart or mind? My heart sais Hamilton, but truthfully, Rosberg has surprised - not only in 2014, but already in 2013. In 2014 what surprised me the most, was the kind of edge Rosberg seemed to have, especially in the dry. And that's not only on tracks that favoured Rosberg, but also tracks where I previously thought that Hamilton looked 'untouchable'. So... I really don't know. :S

I take it that Hamilton is very naturally gifted, but Rosbergs analytical approach to every single race can't be underestimated. He might have struggled in the race due to him being harder on tyres and fuel, but qualifying is still pretty much a test on getting the maximum out of one single lap. Hamilton might have been under pressure many times, also due to him being far behind in the WDC race, but he's also made quite a few mistakes in QF. I don't doubt for a second that Hamilton has the ability to stick it in front of his team-mate in every single QF, but if he will or not... well, that's rather dependant on how well he keeps it together, how focused he is and how comfortable he is in the car. I think Hamilton tends to fluctuate more vs. Rosberg, who is a driver with a very methodical approach. I think the latter will be more consistent.

I really don't know. Perhaps being Hamilton biased, I'm trying to keep my expectations in check by saying Rosberg...
I agree that Rosberg is more metronomic in qualifying. But why can't he translate to to the race? With that brain of his one would think he knows all the right calculations to drive the car fast over more than one lap. To me it is simple. Hamilton set the car up for the race. Toto hinted at it as early as Malaysia, and Hamilton himself hinted at that after Spa. Rosberg has different objectives when setting the car. He is more like Vettel; set up the car to scamper off into the sunset and pray that your pursuers are discombobulated and burn out their tyres in a fit of red mist.
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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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Croft v Kravitz

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Vasconia
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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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Just_a_fan wrote:Maybe Rosberg is another Trulli - quick as you like on one lap, train driver for 20 laps... :shock: :wink: :lol:
No.

Nico has a great race pace but he suffers sometimes more with the rear tyres, in the first half of the season his pace was equal to Hamilton´s. Only in the second half he suffered more, mainly because Lewis started to focus more and more on race configuration. I also noticed that Nico had problems with his tyres in the second stint, when Hamilton overtook him in a couple of races and then he used to recover his pace in the last stint, quite extrange I would say.

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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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Lots of detailed Rosberg vs Hamilton analysis for 2014, probably too much. :lol: At the end and after the DNF's equaled out, it was 11-5 to Hamilton - 'nuff said. :|

I think 2015 will be different, imo Hamilton has emotional weaknesses that do effect his performance and, what looks like a final parting from Nicol, will show in his racing.

This could very likely be Nico's year - can I put that on record? :)

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Phil
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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Phil wrote:Heart or mind? My heart sais Hamilton, but truthfully, Rosberg has surprised - not only in 2014, but already in 2013. In 2014 what surprised me the most, was the kind of edge Rosberg seemed to have, especially in the dry. And that's not only on tracks that favoured Rosberg, but also tracks where I previously thought that Hamilton looked 'untouchable'. So... I really don't know. :S

I take it that Hamilton is very naturally gifted, but Rosbergs analytical approach to every single race can't be underestimated. He might have struggled in the race due to him being harder on tyres and fuel, but qualifying is still pretty much a test on getting the maximum out of one single lap. Hamilton might have been under pressure many times, also due to him being far behind in the WDC race, but he's also made quite a few mistakes in QF. I don't doubt for a second that Hamilton has the ability to stick it in front of his team-mate in every single QF, but if he will or not... well, that's rather dependant on how well he keeps it together, how focused he is and how comfortable he is in the car. I think Hamilton tends to fluctuate more vs. Rosberg, who is a driver with a very methodical approach. I think the latter will be more consistent.

I really don't know. Perhaps being Hamilton biased, I'm trying to keep my expectations in check by saying Rosberg...
I agree that Rosberg is more metronomic in qualifying. But why can't he translate to to the race? With that brain of his one would think he knows all the right calculations to drive the car fast over more than one lap.
Because the qualifying and racing have very different demands to a driver. We don't have refueling anymore. Now, today, we have a full fuel load which adds significant weight that influences tyre temperatures, tyre wear and how the car drives and needs to be driven (because car under full load is very different to drive than a half empty one). Further, we have tyres that have been explicitly created to present an additional challenge.

A driver is so much more than a binary switch that either reads "better" or "worse". Every driver has different abilities, some better than others and a certain way of how they drive. On top of that, you have the mental or psychological aspect. Now as noted above; a car during qualifiying is probably quite a bit different to drive, than one during the race when it is fully tanked and is on tyres that have to last for the duration of the stint. You think Rosberg simply sets his car up for qualifying? No - I think he is that good. But his ability during qualifying masks his "inability" (compared to Hamilton at least) to save fuel or make the tyres last better during the race. Inability is probably the wrong word here, as he is probably very good at it - it's just that Hamilton in 2014 obviously was better, which gave him the edge in racing. So why is Rosberg, despite being a very methodical driver, worse at keeping the tyres alive or conserving fuel? Maybe it's just that Hamiltons driving style is slightly better suited to the demands of racing with these tyres under these fuel loads. Or because, as is often noted, that Hamiltons natural ability to cope with interchanging conditions (a track is an evolving entity, just as are degrading tyres, or a car that is losing weight as it burns of fuel) where as Rosberg is more accustomed to a more calculated approach in which he takes longer to adjust?

I get it that Hamilton fans are irked by the idea that Rosberg might just be 'quicker' during QF. I'm one of them too. But then, as I noted in my last post, I think Hamilton also suffers a bit from more erratic driving. He has the ability to put a lap together that is mesmerizing when he pulls it off, but perhaps 7 times out of 10, he might overcook a corner or push too hard. We rarely saw this happening because quite francly, while he was at McLaren, he had a team-mate who isn't really in the same league where qualifying is concerned (no offense to Button, who on the other hand is brilliant during races). Now, he does. And personally, I think Vettel might be the other really good qualifyer out there - even though he is hard to judge because Webber wasn't always at his best. But some of Sebs qualifying laps (like Hamilton at times shows) were simply breathtaking and on the limit. Later onboards often revealed how perfect he hit the apexes and edges of the track to a point it was hard to believe he could have gotten more out the car. That was Vettel in that EBD car of course. 2014 was a different story, but clearly, not every driver copes with a changing Formula the same. Just look at Schumacher who struggled (or took time to adapt) to cars vs. the cars he used to dominate in.

Back to Rosberg; yes I really think he is that good. And I don't think it's something that Rosberg is setting up for. Even if it is; I think the slight set-up difference might be minimal. Thinking back to 2014; the qualifying where Hamilton lost out to Rosberg, were sometimes down to Hamilton himself. Silverstone he simply lost it when he aborted his last attempt. Austria - he should have been on pole, easily - but overcooked the last corner and had his lap disqualified. On his second attempt, he wasn't as good as on his first, and then he locked his rears and completely lost it. Then in another one (Hungary), his car was on fire where he usually is mighty. Add these all up where he potentially could have been on pole and the head-to-head between Rosberg and Hamilton is extremely narrow, which I think just shows how close it really is between them.

One thing I do add though; I've always maintained the thought that a quick and easy/predictable car narrows the gap between good and better drivers. Given how good that Mercedes is, I wouldn't be surprised if that is also one of the reasons why that gap between Lewis and Rosberg is that small. Because essentially, both are closer to the limit of what the car can do. Add difficult conditions like rain, or perhaps by placing them in a car that is more erratic or difficult to drive and the difference between "good" and "better" increases. I wouldn't be surprised if you placed both Hamilton and Rosberg into a very difficult car that one might outshine the other to a larger degree than what they showed in 2014 in a car that is clearly on rails.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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Phil wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Phil wrote:Heart or mind? My heart sais Hamilton, but truthfully, Rosberg has surprised - not only in 2014, but already in 2013. In 2014 what surprised me the most, was the kind of edge Rosberg seemed to have, especially in the dry. And that's not only on tracks that favoured Rosberg, but also tracks where I previously thought that Hamilton looked 'untouchable'. So... I really don't know. :S

I take it that Hamilton is very naturally gifted, but Rosbergs analytical approach to every single race can't be underestimated. He might have struggled in the race due to him being harder on tyres and fuel, but qualifying is still pretty much a test on getting the maximum out of one single lap. Hamilton might have been under pressure many times, also due to him being far behind in the WDC race, but he's also made quite a few mistakes in QF. I don't doubt for a second that Hamilton has the ability to stick it in front of his team-mate in every single QF, but if he will or not... well, that's rather dependant on how well he keeps it together, how focused he is and how comfortable he is in the car. I think Hamilton tends to fluctuate more vs. Rosberg, who is a driver with a very methodical approach. I think the latter will be more consistent.

I really don't know. Perhaps being Hamilton biased, I'm trying to keep my expectations in check by saying Rosberg...
I agree that Rosberg is more metronomic in qualifying. But why can't he translate to to the race? With that brain of his one would think he knows all the right calculations to drive the car fast over more than one lap.
Because the qualifying and racing have very different demands to a driver. We don't have refueling anymore. Now, today, we have a full fuel load which adds significant weight that influences tyre temperatures, tyre wear and how the car drives and needs to be driven (because car under full load is very different to drive than a half empty one). Further, we have tyres that have been explicitly created to present an additional challenge.

A driver is so much more than a binary switch that either reads "better" or "worse". Every driver has different abilities, some better than others and a certain way of how they drive. On top of that, you have the mental or psychological aspect. Now as noted above; a car during qualifiying is probably quite a bit different to drive, than one during the race when it is fully tanked and is on tyres that have to last for the duration of the stint. You think Rosberg simply sets his car up for qualifying? No - I think he is that good. But his ability during qualifying masks his "inability" (compared to Hamilton at least) to save fuel or make the tyres last better during the race. Inability is probably the wrong word here, as he is probably very good at it - it's just that Hamilton in 2014 obviously was better, which gave him the edge in racing. So why is Rosberg, despite being a very methodical driver, worse at keeping the tyres alive or conserving fuel? Maybe it's just that Hamiltons driving style is slightly better suited to the demands of racing with these tyres under these fuel loads. Or because, as is often noted, that Hamiltons natural ability to cope with interchanging conditions (a track is an evolving entity, just as are degrading tyres, or a car that is losing weight as it burns of fuel) where as Rosberg is more accustomed to a more calculated approach in which he takes longer to adjust?

I get it that Hamilton fans are irked by the idea that Rosberg might just be 'quicker' during QF. I'm one of them too. But then, as I noted in my last post, I think Hamilton also suffers a bit from more erratic driving. He has the ability to put a lap together that is mesmerizing when he pulls it off, but perhaps 7 times out of 10, he might overcook a corner or push too hard. We rarely saw this happening because quite francly, while he was at McLaren, he had a team-mate who isn't really in the same league where qualifying is concerned (no offense to Button, who on the other hand is brilliant during races). Now, he does. And personally, I think Vettel might be the other really good qualifyer out there - even though he is hard to judge because Webber wasn't always at his best. But some of Sebs qualifying laps (like Hamilton at times shows) were simply breathtaking and on the limit. Later onboards often revealed how perfect he hit the apexes and edges of the track to a point it was hard to believe he could have gotten more out the car. That was Vettel in that EBD car of course. 2014 was a different story, but clearly, not every driver copes with a changing Formula the same. Just look at Schumacher who struggled (or took time to adapt) to cars vs. the cars he used to dominate in.

Back to Rosberg; yes I really think he is that good. And I don't think it's something that Rosberg is setting up for. Even if it is; I think the slight set-up difference might be minimal. Thinking back to 2014; the qualifying where Hamilton lost out to Rosberg, were sometimes down to Hamilton himself. Silverstone he simply lost it when he aborted his last attempt. Austria - he should have been on pole, easily - but overcooked the last corner and had his lap disqualified. On his second attempt, he wasn't as good as on his first, and then he locked his rears and completely lost it. Then in another one (Hungary), his car was on fire where he usually is mighty. Add these all up where he potentially could have been on pole and the head-to-head between Rosberg and Hamilton is extremely narrow, which I think just shows how close it really is between them.

One thing I do add though; I've always maintained the thought that a quick and easy/predictable car narrows the gap between good and better drivers. Given how good that Mercedes is, I wouldn't be surprised if that is also one of the reasons why that gap between Lewis and Rosberg is that small. Because essentially, both are closer to the limit of what the car can do. Add difficult conditions like rain, or perhaps by placing them in a car that is more erratic or difficult to drive and the difference between "good" and "better" increases. I wouldn't be surprised if you placed both Hamilton and Rosberg into a very difficult car that one might outshine the other to a larger degree than what they showed in 2014 in a car that is clearly on rails.
First of all, I can't imagine we are going through this saga once again. :)

Lewis' struggles in qualifying has a lot more to do with lack of confidence under breaking. He has struggled with the kind of break materials that Brembo or Carbon Industrie has produced (overheating, glazing, failure and what not). Brembo/Carbon Industrie might have to probably understand the break by wire better. In McLaren days, with Akebono, he never had those issues in qualifying and qualifying was regarded as his biggest strength. He is a late breaker and whole of last year we have often seen him locking the breaks as the breaks are not necessarily responding the way he likes them to. If Merc manages to get better product from Brembo/Carbon Industrie, which provides consistency in how he feels, the qualifying this year could be a different story.

There was an article, I don't exactly remember where or who has written. It explained how Lewis has succeeded in giving this impression to whole lot of people that HE IS NOT AN INTELLIGENT DRIVER LIKE NICO. At the start of the season, all the pundits kept telling that the new cars require intelligent way of driving and hence Nico is best suited to these cars. There were also people who felt Lewis is very aggressive driver and hence would struggle with tyres. Lewis was psychologically week as he wears his heart on his sleeve. In the end, the scoreline was 11-5, he excelled in areas where HE SHOULDN'T HAVE, new formula, tyres, fuel, battling those heart breaking car faillures and ever falling back in points.

If Merc manages to conquer the demons of reliability, it's hard to see beyond Lewis for championship. Nico is a very good driver, but one cannot deny that consistent reliability problems and errors in qualifying from Lewis kept Nico in contention for championship last year. Failing in the very first race made Lewis to play the chasing game. Had Nico failed in the first race and Lewis would have led the standings from the beginning, it would have been a huge mountain for Nico to climb and it would have definitely created psychological issues.

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Phil
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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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Mate, I have absolutely no idea what exactly you are replying to, despite a lot of things which I actually referenced in not only my last post, but the previous one as well. My post was much more directed at the specific question why Rosberg, despite his methodical approach, suffered a bit during the races (and to a degree, if there is some truth to differing set-ups that might have influenced qualifying). Your post reads a bit like "Lewis is the best and this and that were reasons why it didn't work out"... while I agree that most of the reasons mentioned did have some influence, it isn't exactly as simple either, because one can't assume that Rosberg had a perfect car to his liking at all times either that may have prevented him in doing better. Dealing with factors that aren't to your liking belongs to the job description, which is why my post expands beyond those points.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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lebesset
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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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doesn't seem to be any dispute as to who is the quicker race driver , but the quicker qualifier ?
still hamilton for me !
i think the reason for the 2014 result was the Button effect
pretty apparent that hamilton was desperate to win the WDC , had things not gone against him he could easily have already have been 3 times WDC ...so his strategy was Button like
in 2009 jenson was WDC because in the first half of the season he had the outstanding car and was quicker than his team mate ...he made best use of that , racked up a big lead ; when his car was more of a mid field car due to the lack of funds to develop it when the big teams adopted the DD by mid season he ignored the ...win in style ...cries and instead just picked up what points he could without sticking his neck out [ i may be wrong but i can only remember him once 'going for it ' when he judged that was the best strategy ]
hamilton spent 3 years in the same team as Button , and didn't outscore him despite being faster ; so , judging that he would beat his team mate in a head to head fight he tried to ensure front row starts ...all he needed
but in 2015 with the monkey off his back I believe we will see the real hamilton in qually and that he will comfortably outscore his team mate
looking forward to the battle !!
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Kingshark
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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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I predict 10-9 in favor of Rosberg in qualifying overall. 11-9 if the German GP does happen.

I don't think he'll take pole in Australia though, he's not particularly good around that circuit.

Malaysia, Bahrain, Spain, Monaco, Austria, Hockenheim, Belgium, Singapore, Suzuka, Brazil & Abu Dhabi however....

lebesset
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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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personally I don't see mercedes getting ALL the poles this year , second half of the season when the others get closer there will surely be he odd race which particularly suits a different car
but I think last year was a one off due to the pressure on hamilton for that second WDC , and this year I see him outscoring rosberg
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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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There will always be irregular weekends where weather or an accident can play a factor in qualifying. 2015 is going to bring us more of the same, tighter behind the Mercs though, that should be a show worth watching in and of itself.
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SiLo
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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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I was under the impression that Hamilton's better speed in races was because of his driving style, not just setting up the car for race day.

His style is easier on the rear tyres, which are usually first to go, and he also uses less fuel because he spends less time accelerating.

So IMO the only way Rosberg will beat him this year is to to change his driving style, which is no easy feat.
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Kingshark
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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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lebesset wrote:personally I don't see mercedes getting ALL the poles this year , second half of the season when the others get closer there will surely be he odd race which particularly suits a different car
but I think last year was a one off due to the pressure on hamilton for that second WDC , and this year I see him outscoring rosberg
I'm not predicting that Mercedes will take all the pole positions, but that Rosberg will edge Lewis overall in qualifying. I also expect Rosberg to improve his Sunday performance, that's my guess anyway.

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Rosberg won't have it so easy in qualifying because of the new reliable car and tyre changes.
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Kingshark
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Re: will 2015 be a 2 horse race ?

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Reliability only really affected Lewis twice in qualifying (Germany and Hungary), taking both out of the equation it was still 10-7 in favor of Nico.

As for tyres, I don't recall a single qualifying session in 2014 where Rosberg particularly struggled with tyres heating or getting them in the right operating window.

Rosberg is a real monster in qualifying, the only person to beat Lewis in equal cars around Montreal. It's the one area where I wouldn't confidently bet on LH.

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