F1 safety after Alonso's accident

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Tim.Wright
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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tomazy wrote:I dont buy that the car hit the wall at the perfect angle so that the suspension didn' break. Suspension is not designed for the force to be in that direction (I think?). if the acceloration was 30g, that means that the suspension was loaded with force equal of at least 21tons of weight (min weight 701kg*30g), no suspension would survive that (at least I think not?). What is the point of having a side impact structure, if the suspension doesn't give? This is realy strange.

This is just me thinking out laud, it could all be compleatly wrong.
Suspension is designed to be very stiff in a lateral direction. This usually results in it being much stronger than it needs to be to carry just the cornering forces.
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FW17
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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I think the whole thing comes down to number of concussions one has had through their career. Dario Franchitti had to retire after his third.

Alonso had one in 2003 Brazil, not sure if something that far back has an influence. He also had an episode when he jumped a kerb in Abu Dhabi

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slimfitcasual
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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From what I've heard wasn't it the lateral impact that caused the concussion? Is the HANS device ineffective in side-to-side impacts?
Per ardua ad astra

langwadt
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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slimfitcasual wrote:From what I've heard wasn't it the lateral impact that caused the concussion? Is the HANS device ineffective in side-to-side impacts?
The HANS hold the helmet/head so you don't break the neck, it doesn't stop the brain from sloshing around inside the head

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bdr529
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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WilliamsF1 wrote:I think the whole thing comes down to number of concussions one has had through their career. Dario Franchitti had to retire after his third.

Alonso had one in 2003 Brazil, not sure if something that far back has an influence. He also had an episode when he jumped a kerb in Abu Dhabi
Your right, they are cumulative, your at a greater risk of repeating each time you get on. the symptoms and time it takes to recover are different for everyone, also the # of concussions you've had will also have an effect on your symptom and recovery time.
There was a hockey player a few years back got one and was out for 1 year, he lived in his basement for half a year because to much light gave him sever migraines, players that are out the longest because of repeat concussions, all complain about the migraines

langwadt
langwadt
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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bdr529 wrote:
WilliamsF1 wrote:I think the whole thing comes down to number of concussions one has had through their career. Dario Franchitti had to retire after his third.

Alonso had one in 2003 Brazil, not sure if something that far back has an influence. He also had an episode when he jumped a kerb in Abu Dhabi
Your right, they are cumulative, your at a greater risk of repeating each time you get on. the symptoms and time it takes to recover are different for everyone, also the # of concussions you've had will also have an effect on your symptom and recovery time.
There was a hockey player a few years back got one and was out for 1 year, he lived in his basement for half a year because to much light gave him sever migraines, the players out the longest because of concussions all complain about the migraines
concussion are taken much more serious now. There have been a number of former NFL players who have donated their brains to science because they believe they had issues from repeated concussions, and recently a number of former NHL
players sued the league for not taking concussions seriously

nokivasara
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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WilliamsF1 wrote:I think the whole thing comes down to number of concussions one has had through their career. Dario Franchitti had to retire after his third.

Alonso had one in 2003 Brazil, not sure if something that far back has an influence. He also had an episode when he jumped a kerb in Abu Dhabi
I think you are right, there's been a lot of attention on athletes suffering from concussions lately. IIRC even minor concussions are dangerous, more than was known just a few years back.

Didn't Vettel say that Alonso bounced along the wall? Or maybe when he hit the grass?
Maybe he got the concussion right there, even before he hit the wall, if the car skips on its floor there's nothing that takes up the enegy...

lebesset
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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it sounds to me that posters here were not in spain at the time of this incident ...I was

I cancelled a a journey because of the severity of the gusts of wind where i was

the pilot at the port near where i was couldn't get a ship into port because the gusts caused the hawsers to snap ...had to wait a day

the video clip with the car against the wall after the accident clearly shows similar winds to those which i experienced , not surprising that alonso got caught out [ he was not alone ], just bad luck

in my view , no real lessons to be learned , motor racing wil never be 100% safe ....the FIA will probably come up with a sinecure though
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Tim.Wright
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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lebesset wrote:it sounds to me that posters here were not in spain at the time of this incident ...I was
We aren't discussing the wind, we are discussing the impact...
Not the engineer at Force India

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bdr529
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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langwadt wrote: concussion are taken much more serious now. There have been a number of former NFL players who have donated their brains to science because they believe they had issues from repeated concussions, and recently a number of former NHL
players sued the league for not taking concussions seriously
I wasn't making light of it, concussion have long been a part of hockey, every kid who has played the game has got one, me included. As you can see the NHL has been a head of the NFL on concussion protocol for quite some time
The National Football League's policy was first started in 2007
The National Hockey League's concussion policy began in 1997

timbo
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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poolboy67 wrote:i just said that padding (i wrote cushioning) isnt very soft partly because the outer layer is actually a thin layer of carbon fibre. secondly because, well the material itself isn't very soft. and there's not alot of that material there anyway.

Scarbs:
"This foam is relatively soft when touched, but when subject to a severe blow the foam hardens to absorb the load and is then slow to bounce back. This characteristic protects the driver from both the initial blow and any whiplash response."

but there's still only so much that about 7.5cm of material can do in an impact. the initial impact will be hard none the less.
I see.
Shouldn't it be possible to create something with more progressive characteristic? I.e. softer on initial impact and harder further on? Also, probably padding can be thicker.

I still wonder if impact angle has a major role in the outcome of the crash. FIA tests only frontal and side impacts. IMO impact at 30-45 degrees angle would result in much less efficient energy dissipation.

That's unrelated to Alonso's crash but side impact structures are IMO very risky. They are too "directional" if you get what I mean. I don't think they are very effective if there is some longitudinal component to an impact.

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strad
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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I have visions of Joe Weatherly :wink:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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Pierce89
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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bdr529 wrote:
WilliamsF1 wrote:I think the whole thing comes down to number of concussions one has had through their career. Dario Franchitti had to retire after his third.

Alonso had one in 2003 Brazil, not sure if something that far back has an influence. He also had an episode when he jumped a kerb in Abu Dhabi
Your right, they are cumulative, your at a greater risk of repeating each time you get on. the symptoms and time it takes to recover are different for everyone, also the # of concussions you've had will also have an effect on your symptom and recovery time.
There was a hockey player a few years back got one and was out for 1 year, he lived in his basement for half a year because to much light gave him sever migraines, players that are out the longest because of repeat concussions, all complain about the migraines
I'm assuming you're referring to Crosby?
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Manoah2u
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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I'm still quite surprised about the downplay alonso's crash gets.

There are some imporant 'marks' in this incident.

1st of all, it happend at 150kph, and it's been thought he'd hit the wall @ 105kph. For F1's standards, that might not be blazingly fast - but the kinetic energy at that speed is enough to cause mayhem.

2nd of all, it happend at a concrete wall, which indeed, doesn't give one bit. Just think about kicking against a gym mat with running shoes on vs a concrete wall with running shoes on. Ouch.

3rd of all, the fact the Mclaren has little visible damage does not neccesarily suggest the crash was minor. It suggests the car itself did not absorb much of the force that was transferred to it. The car hit a 30G spike, that's not minor. The fact the suspension did not break does not mean it was a light impact. The suspension is not that severly fragile, it's not made of cheese. Wheels hitting the concrete wall dead on may transfer the energy 'perfectly' through the suspension arms and axle, causing the full effect of the contact to be transferred through the vehicle.

4th of all, the 15g measuring in the seat does not mean the head and body recieved even less G. On the contrary, it might have been higher for the actual helmet movement. the driver's body is strapped to the seat, but the driver's head is perhaps the only real 'flexible' part in the car itself bar the suspension and tires. In an extreme example; Rollercoaster effects. Strapped or 'clinged' into a seat, the actual body doesn't recieve much punishment. But the sudden movements and sudden stop causes the head to move violently [i'm obviously not talking about kindergarten locomotive runs]; the G forces exposed to the head are larger than that of the body itself. Some people even lose conciousness due to the rapid movement and shock.
Add to that the possibility the helmet hit the side structures of the head protection in the cockpit [the helmet may not have been visually damaged but that does not mean there was no contact].
Finally think indeed about the brain movement within the head making a rapid stop causing the brains to 'slam' against the skull, and perhaps adding to that an extra 'hit' from when the helmet/head hits the protection causing a 2nd 'slam' in either the opposite direction or the same from the movement followed and it's not that odd indeed that Alonso was 'out' for a moment.

BTW, there's a difference between being unresponsive and unconscious.

I haven't heard before that Alonso still thought he was driving for Ferrari, but it would prove the shock was significant.


For the still existing wild theories about electrocution-cover up; a short electrocution 'span' from ERS or whatever will not cause all these effects. It would have to be quite a sever shot of electricity to knock 'Nando unconscious causing him to hit the walls. Still, telemetry showed he was hitting the brakes and making corrections up until the moment of impact.

I would imagine 'electrocution' of Alonso would signify somehow the electricity found it's way to alonso's head/body. I have 2 issues with this. 1: it means electricity runs through the car in ways that were not intended to; I would fully expect a surge of electricity going through the vehicle would definately cause certain things to get 'fried' and thus damaged. For example; steering wheel display, certain sensors, etc. Non of this happened and the FIA investigation and Mclaren's investigation did not reveal any 'weird' malfunctions.
2nd issue i have with this theory is that i'm wondering on how alonso would experience results as being some sort of 'conductor'. I'd frankly be surprised if he really was a conductor at any point; If the car was 'under [ERS] current', then this current has to go somewhere; Alonso is not an exit so he's not the conductor - the 4 tires of the car are made of a compound that doesn't conduct electricity either - there is no ground.

Marshalls are only a danger because they are the ' ground ' in case of an electrical unsafe situation; they are the missing contact link between the car and the earth. That's why there are warning lights and that's why the marshalls wear gloves.
In case of an unsafe electrical issue with the car; there is a red light instead of a green one, and marshalls will not touch the car so they will not conduct any energy.

The driver, in such occasion, would jump from the car so he does not make a bridge between the car and the earth/ground.

Image

http://i.imgur.com/ZyXDB4j.jpg

was the driver electrocuted ? No he wasn't. He did not make a bridge so there was no electroshock. So, how could Alonso been electrocuted whilst there was no bridge? he wasn't electrocuted because there was no electrical issue.

The wind is still the actual cause of the freak accident which was a gathering of circumstances leading to the incident.
The wind influencing the car which caused the car's directional angle to be affected, the loss of grip from Alonso's oversteer moment just moments before, and the difficulty of correcting what was happening.

And yes, perhaps indeed, Alonso was slightly ill. Perhaps Alonso's concentration and focus was a bit off because of a cold or fever or whatever, which might have been enough for him to 1:cause the initial 'oversteer' error, and 2:being less able to correct what followed next. with finally 3:causing an amplification of the physical effects to the body thanks to the impact itself.

I fail to see how the onboard camera's would be of much help. Rather have track camera's operating which you could use for streaming which would additionaly be a benefit for fans and reports.
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NaSku
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Re: f1 safety in light of Alonso accident

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This is the picture from the crash and the light on top of the rool hoop would indicate that the car was electrically "safe".

Image