Amateur racing culture

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Amateur racing culture

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I'm thinking Tim, Miguel, Flyn are right (hi, mates!.

You, RaceEngineering, say you're looking for a market: this starts with understanding price sensibility.

Well, first, hello, nice to "meet" you. Great thread, thanks.

Second, as mentioned, if your target is commodity prices (or, in English, "dirt cheap") you have to be a dominant player in the market.

Starting small trying to sell, I don't know, oranges, which are a commodity, is a waste of money and time. You must know that, of course.

Third, an example of a marketing research well done is the partnership of Elán, Toyo Tires and NASA. The cost of the car is 55.000 dollars, not because it's cheap but because it maximizes income, which is the starting point of entrepreneurship. Read a little, please:

https://www.nasaproracing.com/news/2014 ... t_pri_show

They are trying to hit a sweet spot with teams, NOT individuals. There is money in that.
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This thread seems to have started 50 years late. A very low price for INDIVIDUAL racing might work, but not without capital and a strong ad campaign. Hence, you are looking for a small car, with a small engine, with a bare bones chassis, one that can take damage because you have crazy and unpredictable adolescents racing.

Some people (Flyn?) point to the fact of karts already invented.

A very clear alternative is to follow the path of people smarter than you (well, as a minimum, smarter than me, something not that hard but also not that easy: people can tell you I know racing culture).

Formula Ford or Lotus Seven are very intelligent (and affordable and available racing cars) with a market already developed, promoted and findable in the Interwebs, a market that includes old timers and young guns.

Their idea? Simple: race in a replica (or a rebuilt version) of an OLD car.

Lotus 51, 1967 competition devised to keep costs low. Back then.
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That's a car that can make people in this forum dream. DREAM: with a capital D, a capital R, etc.

Classic cigar shaped car, tyres that can run for two or three seasons at the four or five races per season that a regular aficionado can realistically race, a stock Ford Engine with five bearings, single Weber carburetor.

Heck, it's so simple that people would LOVE to learn how to tune this thing. You can earn more money by convincing people to buy a replica and tune it themselves in your (really?) own circuit than by racing.

Why people love baseball? Because it reminds them of a forgotten, already gone era, pastoral, with a slow time, where things were in control of people with two hands and a brain.

Same goes for old school racing: most people in this forum POSITIVELY hates their cars because they cannot touch them (unless they want to spend 10.000 dollars in parts, not in leisure time).

Even a Golf is untouchable for a regular person that could fix an old engine with a set of screwdrivers, a synchronizing gun and some gauges. These days are gone for the regular commuter that sees his car not as an investment or a thing to take care of, but a thing that is just an expenditure.

There is your market: in the people that hates modern racing (and judging by this forum, they are a majority!).

Do you remember when garages had pinups on the walls? Well, they do too, I bet.
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Following that train of thought, of the aficionados to old school racing, well, you want to distribute investment and expenses among many people, but not so many that they have total disregard for equipment, if I've understood the thread.

There you have a great idea, free of charge:

You can LEASE them old school cars to groups of people, the same way time sharing hotels work.

If, I don't know, five or six people join efforts, they can have you selling and maintaining the car and also learning from you how to race and tune the car.

These are not entry level racers: they are middle aged guys that dream of racing and want to "racepool" (I demand a copyright on that name for the series, if you use it), instead of carpooling.

That's a good idea, if I have to say it.

I can imagine a queue of hipsters from Leed to London... 8)

Darn hipster queues
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That's what an entrepreneur lives of: people's dreams, if I'm also the one who has to say it.

So, what is our dream? You don't argue with the forum, you ask them provocative things.

For example: would you spend, I don't know, 2.000 dollars per year for a car that belongs to you and your set of five friends?

What are the things that would make you spend more (or less)? More races? Really? Can you race 20 times per year? I didn't think so.

A vintage car that is leased to you... how much would you spend?

What is your dream racing car?

Nobody in this forum wants to race a Golf. Do I have to say that?
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So, stop arguing about brake pads prices and develop a questionnaire, for the love of Pete.

A smart one, please: it's for people like Miguel, Flynnfrog, Tim.Wright and the other guys that have participated in this thread. They all have cars that can outperform a Golf any day of the week, but none is an open wheeler with the coolest of looks (and affordable tyres!) like a Lotus 51.

Anyone of them would pay money just to don a helmet in the style of Jim Clark and take a selfie, preferably with a girl in a miniskirt at their side.

Btw, have I already said I would spend half the money in pit babes instead of stupid things like roll cages, safety belts, fireproof apparel, marshalls and instructors?

Some of them could work for minimum wage. That would assure AT LEAST half the capital, if they go with you to the presentation of the idea, btw.
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Heck, if you're looking for partners, look for decent ones...
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 01 Apr 2015, 00:43, edited 3 times in total.
Ciro

RacingEngineering
RacingEngineering
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Joined: 22 Mar 2015, 23:41

Re: Amateur racing culture

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FactsOnly, if roll cages are used in banger racing, it does not mean that you cant use it in Ariel,Jedi,Go Kart or in any other car type. You can import this idea.

Ciro, thank you. But you dont mention very important factor - target market. My target is not those people who love racing more than everything and who want to live a F1 driver life in local level. My target audience are those who love driving but not able to spend cosmic money because of the autosport demand(autosport is expensive). That is why, my aim is to create an environment which could reduce the costs and will enable all people to race. I mean that i dont just think about semi-professionals but i think about everyone who love cars. Maybe semi-professionals want to race in cigar shape cars and see model girls around but member of my target audience will be glad to race in any car(including Golf). Yesterday interview of Fernando Alonso:''No matter what series,what speed and what car. You just want to race,to compete''....These are the words of a F1 champion, so if you dont trust me, you can trust Alonso. Also Miguel after this message have mentioned that BHP is not the most important factor
Last edited by RacingEngineering on 01 Apr 2015, 00:50, edited 3 times in total.

Miguel
Miguel
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Re: Amateur racing culture

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I'd definitely pay money to [learn how to] race a Lotus 51! I'd get life insurance first, but the idea of driving a "vacuum cleaner" painted in british racing green, with a yellow stripe and a proper seatbelt is alluring. Even if it had only 50bhp!!!!

OT: I don't have a car...
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Amateur racing culture

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RacingEngineering wrote:Ciro, thank you. But you dont mention very important factor - target market. My target is not those people who love racing more than everything and who want to live a F1 driver life in local level...
Exactly. Racing is not banging a car around a track. I routinely do market research for gas pump facilities and, believe me, if I know people is drivers: I have designed from racetracks to hotels for truckers.

You must be young when you think that 20 pounds is the limit for "cosmic money". Just listen to the response the forum could give you (if you devise a questionnaire). I will eat my racing gloves if, after sorting the answers, a 20 pounds system of racing gives us more money than a Lotus 51 lease sharing, even if the second has less customers.

Over all, I'm an engineer: do your design, and give me numbers instead of opinions. Any investor would ask the same, do not hide, RE. :wink:

You, dear sir, are wrong when you think that money in racing is in karts: on the contrary, karts should be financed by local governments, who understand that young people crashing in streets are people that should be learning to race in a kart.

That's another idea I have put forward many times in this forum: for the price of a basketball coliseum you can have a kart track and 20 karts for people in public schools to get a FIA racing license.

This is much more socially productive than learning to play basketball: many young people will die trying to emulate racers in public streets.

Please, run the costs of lives, injuries and health costs vs the cost of a kart track subsidized in a school curriculum that teaches people to drive before they hit the streets and you'll see there is another idea waiting to be exploited.

For starters, if a local government understand that mandatory (or at least as an elective) race driving school courses save lives, you will have a 30 days per month, 18 hours per day use of karts, for all schools to use them. This is a great idea, if you ask me.

In that case your market is not individuals but the Ministry of Education.
Ciro

RacingEngineering
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Re: Amateur racing culture

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Ciro Pabón wrote:You, dear sir, are wrong when you think that money in racing is in karts
I didnt understand anything. Why exactly karts? I have not mentioned anywhere in this thread that i want to work merely with karts. It can be anything that possible to implement but keeping the racing spirit on the same level. Moreover, i also mentioned yesterday that it can work if we will scale up the kart size by 50%-100%, meaning that the regular go-kart is not a solution. Anything else is acceptable for further analysis.

Facts Only
Facts Only
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Re: Amateur racing culture

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RacingEngineering wrote:FactsOnly, if roll cages are used in banger racing, it does not mean that you cant use it in Ariel,Jedi,Go Kart or in any other car type. You can import this idea.

You said you were going to put a roll cage on the outside to protect the cars, that is what you do in banger racing.

No track owner would ever let you turn up at there circuit with 20 cars with roll cages on the outside and let 20 people who have only paid £40 loose in them. Actually I bet no track owner would be happy with you letting 20 people out in any car that they have only paid £40 to drive with no tuition or without a monster deposit. I bet the marshalls wouldn't be best pleased with you putting their lives at risk either.

By the way I have driven a Jedi and if you stick a normal untrained driver in one and let them loose it will last about 2 laps before its either smashed into a barrier, had its engine destroyed or the gearbox has been shattered into tiny pieces.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

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Tim.Wright
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Amateur racing culture

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RacingEngineering wrote:Consider that i own a track.
RacingEngineering wrote:I have no track
Now I'm lost...
Not the engineer at Force India

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SectorOne
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Joined: 26 May 2013, 09:51

Re: Amateur racing culture

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Welcome to the club.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

RacingEngineering
RacingEngineering
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Re: Amateur racing culture

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Tim, i wrote ''consider''. Dont get lost. Also i wrote several times that i am a student. How i can have an own track? Also i wrote ''consider that i own a track'' for making computations without track factor impact.We are trying different situations to find out best solution from the point of view of expenditures. That is it.

FactsOnly, i agree with you. Jedi is not for amateurs unless you reduce BHP. But i hope it is possible to use wide and low chassis for stability and safety, plus you can use a small engine for it...Talking about roll cages, it will be used not for crashing on purpose but for any case. I mean that if any contact will happen, car will not be damaged and it will not affect maintenance or car substitution costs. But not for crashing.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Amateur racing culture

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Pro-tip: In english, if you state "consider that I own a track" it means that you own a track.
RacingEngineering wrote:Also i wrote several times that i am a student. How i can have an own track?
Nothing is impossible?
Not the engineer at Force India

RacingEngineering
RacingEngineering
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Re: Amateur racing culture

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Tim.Wright wrote: Nothing is impossible?
Yes. If you have an idea, if you have solutions, if you have analysed everything and managed the risk, if you did everything right, so nothing is impossible. We live in 21th century with a lot of opportunities. I have no track, so? It means that i have to ruin my life doing a job that i hate? No,thanks. I cant understand people who do not dare to realize their dreams. Especially if they have required opportunities and resources.....You want to have everything under your hand but 1.what will be the challenge and ecitement? 2. This is exactly what impossible - to gain everything doing nothing and thinking that all goods will fall to your head from the skies.And if they dont fall, it means that you cant do anything......It is absolutely wrong logic. It is YOU who have to create everything, nothing will fall from the skies, except luck and God will. I have no track? It can not stop me. I can talk to track holders, can create a partnership with them,can give them my shares, for the next step i can build my own one, it is possible to establish an alliance for building tracks. So many opportunities.
Last edited by RacingEngineering on 01 Apr 2015, 19:03, edited 1 time in total.

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bdr529
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Joined: 08 Apr 2011, 19:49
Location: Canada

Re: Amateur racing culture

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The Cost of Renting a Track

I just called my local track for the cost of 1 day rental, $2800 CAN. Toronto Motorsports park
granted the cost for a track in England may be higher/lower because of over all demand / lack of tracks / Govt. regulations

That said, $2800 CAN converts to £1500/day or £7500/week and a non refundable deposit of £3750/week.
I don't know if you could rent a track for 1 whole month, but for 16 days (Mon-Fri) would total £24,000/month
I'm guess you'd get a discount but how much $$$ I don't have a clue.

http://www.torontomotorsportspark.com
- All events must be pre-booked with 50% deposit to secure dates.
- Cancellation will result in loss of deposit.
- Daily rentals start at 9:00 AM and end at 5:00 PM, (8 hours total)
- You will be charged $300 per hour for overtime use on a fifteen minute basis.
- No subletting of the facilities will be permitted unless previously arranged

RacingEngineering
RacingEngineering
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Re: Amateur racing culture

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bdr529, reasonable price. But we need to take into account that we dont just book a track for 1-2 days in a year. There has to be a partnership with track holders and they will be interested in it, as all european tracks have financial problems because they are free 90% of time.

Giving shares is always good. They will be interested in business development. I will be interested in not overpaying. Meaning that i will own 40% of a track,they will own 40% of my business. 40%=example

Basically, why to pay if you can share and own?

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SectorOne
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Re: Amateur racing culture

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And why should this track owner do a deal with you instead of doing a deal with himself?
Seeing as he actually owns a track already. And have "90% free time"

Can you make him an offer he can´t refuse?
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

RacingEngineering
RacingEngineering
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Re: Amateur racing culture

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SectorOne, First, noone did it before that we want to do. It is a big challenge and not sure that they able to spend a lot of time and energy for creating it. Second, i already wrote that for track owners will be better to earn even 1GBP instead of 0.