Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
markp wrote:No he did not. Stewards hsve access to all information and found Verstappen guilty. They can check lines into corners, throttle, braking etc if brake testing there was know where to hide. People seem to think watching on tv their opinions are more informed than the stewards. They could try and argue 150mph is faster than 160mph if they wanted. This is not subjective the stewards have various facts and made a clear decision.
Whether they have all the data or not doesn't mean that Grosjean didnt lift off early, the onus from the rules is still going to be on the following driver not to crash into the one in front
IMHO, doesn't matter if Grosjean break too early...And I don't care about Verstappen complaints...That's all part of the game.
I don't defend any of them.
Frankly...That race was VERY BORING before that crash.
As long nobody is hurt, crashes are part of this sport....Specially in Monaco.
PlatinumZealot wrote:Max is lucky he can get away with saying such stupid things. Let Alonso, Nico or Hamilton say and watch the f1 world implode.
Didn't Hamilton say that Alonso lifted out of T2 in Bahrain 2008 when he ran into the back of him. Pat Symonds said he'd show the data to prove otherwise and nobody took him up on the offer as Symonds was as straight as an arrow. In my mind that episode gave Renault the idea for the Singapore 2008 crash with Piquet.
Grosjean braked more or less where he braked the previous lap.
Romain also took a defensive line on both laps, which in a track like Monaco shouldv'e stopped any "dive bomb" ideas Max might've had going through his mind.
So i'm going with no brake test + a WTF were you thinking? for Max.
To me the most noticeable aspect you can see in this video is Max went to the right after Grosjean moved to the right... Where was he going? There was no space there
markp wrote:No he did not. Stewards hsve access to all information and found Verstappen guilty. They can check lines into corners, throttle, braking etc if brake testing there was know where to hide. People seem to think watching on tv their opinions are more informed than the stewards. They could try and argue 150mph is faster than 160mph if they wanted. This is not subjective the stewards have various facts and made a clear decision.
Whether they have all the data or not doesn't mean that Grosjean didnt lift off early, the onus from the rules is still going to be on the following driver not to crash into the one in front
Not always if following driver has part of car alongside before brake or turn in point space must be left by the lead driver. Massa was penalised India 2011 when leading Hamilton into a corner. There was a collision Hamilton was following but Massa was punished. Data is important as the stewards look at various aspects of what drivers have done to see if they did something different that caused a crash. Moving in the braking zone is not allowed if the lead driver moved across during braking causing a crash it is the lead driver that is punished. However in this case the stewards had all the information and punished one driver so for me there is no case for Verstappen. I do however feel that in the past these things are racing incidents. These days its so black and white so no action or a punishment with no inbetween. Senna should of had a grid penalty after Suzuka 1990.
To me the most noticeable aspect you can see in this video is Max went to the right after Grosjean moved to the right... Where was he going? There was no space there
At the point he transfers from left to right there is smoke coming from the right wheel. His front is locked, I think he already realized that he lost the corner and was looking for an escape. The right side would be the best option as Grosjean would normally move over to the left to line up for the first corner, so the gap on the left would quickly disappear and the right would open up. Grosjean seems to also drive a more defensive line than normal which compounded to the problem.
To me it doesn't even look like an overtaking attempt. Its just Verstappen being a bit overeager to follow and being surprised by perhaps Grosjean being much slower due to his car problems. Perhaps Lotus is right and he was braking at the same point but he was clearly slow over the straight, so the effect would be the same as braking earlier. And in Monaco there is very little room to correct.
I think the punishment is OK. The guy behind should have sufficient margin to avoid the guy in front, unless he does something very stupid. And that is not the case.
When I first wrote this, I thought I would take the controversial side...
Lotus (then Renault) did ask Nelson Piquet Jr to crash his car in Malaysia, so it is not unheard of. Is this dangerous, hell yes, but this is a business.
The otherwise of this argument is that Toro Rosso ended up picking up 10th spot and the final point. So you could easily argue maybe Max took one for the team...
Either way, I agree that it was a pretty pedestrian race until then. Good on Max for having a go. Maybe Romain will think twice next time. This is all part of the mind games drivers play...
Romain seems like he didd drive quite a margin slower at the first corner than before,
but again, i don't think anybody is to blame here, really.
Imho, it's simply racing and unfortunate happenings.
Going off-throttle and braking later seems logical too for a car with a bit of brake issues trying to guarantee a race finish.
Braking later to catch up is logical for Verstappen, too - again, simply racing incident.
The punishment for verstappen in the end really isn't that severe, when you concider that Max wasn't really driving scat-free during the race.
Max did cause a collision by slamming into Romain, simple as that. And there are penalties for such.
The stewards might have decided to leave it be as Romain could continue and Verstappen crashed hard,
but i think most are forgetting the undeniable fact that Max, in all his enthusiasm, did clip the back of Pastor's Lotus before.
So that's another Max vs Lotus incident, where he damaged his own front wing, and damaged Pastor's Lotus,
causing the marshalls to go on track to grab the debris, resulting in double yellow, and compromising Pastor's race.
That was 100% Max's fault, and it's worth mentioning he got away with that with quite some luck, because in all its facts it could be concidered as 'causing a collision' - Max very well could have gotten a penalty for that. He didn't, so imho, he was lucky there.
Now if Max had not hit Romain like that, and remained his head cool, and just sit out from P11 to see what might happen in front, he could easily have either seen himself @ P10 when Romain made a driver error due to brake issues: Try and push him into braking later @ the tunnel f.e. and overtake him while Romain locks up. It would have been a very potential scenario.
Unfortunately for Max, i'm sure his previous run-in with Pastor actually is why he got this penalty. Had that not have happened, i'm 100% sure he would have gotten away with it. Toro Rosso probably was under a magnifying glass from the unneccesary dangers both - understandably - enthusiastic drivers had. Sainz nearly caused a huge crash as he missed Ericsson by just a hair after the tunnel. That would have been a safety-car or perhaps even a red-flag incident had he slammed into that car.
So, in the end - Verstappen's penalty was entirely justified taking into account the entire race. Something the media offcourse is simply 'forgetting' to mention.
Grosjean however was not entitled to his 'idiot' remark to Verstappen since he is quite the 'crashjean' himself, but, it was in the heat of the moment so really, why are we discussing this again?
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
ian_s wrote:watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGSkxQe-4rw it looks to me like RG was actually moving to the left, and MV still hit him. the speed MV was going i think there was going to be an accident there regardless of RGs actions.
the penalty was deserved, and hopefully MV learns from this, as any rookie should, and indeed any driver at all should
I must say that the tyre tether did an amazing job here. Verstappen's left front is clearly detached from the car and could well have been a killer if it were not for this clever bit of safety technology.
"Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words." - Chuang Tzu
Andres125sx wrote:.... and he´ll not compete? That´s what you´re insinuating?
Mark Blundell has stated uncategorically in interviews in certain situations, he went into corners racing against other drivers, knowing full well they both wouldn't come out the other side. His point was to intimidate the other driver and make them second guess next time, and maybe back off. If you are racing another driver and you think he is likely to act that way, it will affect your judgement. As I said, drivers' mind games...
Manoah2u wrote:
So that's another Max vs Lotus incident, where he damaged his own front wing, and damaged Pastor's Lotus,
causing the marshalls to go on track to grab the debris, resulting in double yellow, and compromising Pastor's race.
That was 100% Max's fault, and it's worth mentioning he got away with that with quite some luck, because in all its facts it could be concidered as 'causing a collision' - Max very well could have gotten a penalty for that. He didn't, so imho, he was lucky there.
Just have a look at the footage.. Maldonado is just very slow (deliberately?) out of the corner.. and it's certainly not worth a penalty.
