Fan boost! No more holding back!

[Jersey Tom]

Naysaying aint true engineeering grit IMO, Sgt-S.

My take is that naysaying is very much true engineering grit. You've got to be a pragmatist, and you've got to be able to squash or table some propositions so you can step back and ask, "What do we really need to be focusing on here?" Can't chase up every willy-nilly idea, otherwise you have no time for the real problems.

[SectorOne]

1) DRS fails in the normally closed position i believe...meaning you have more diwnforce than with it open. A failure simply means you dont pickup a few mph down a straight.

Except Schumacher in Canada and Alonso in Bahrain.

[sgth0mas]

Im a mechanical design engineer, I do this in the real world. Thats why its hard for me to join in on this fantasy stuff and support it.

Do you know how "easily" you can design a system to not spit debris? Do you know the materials to use? Do you know what happens when it becomes clogged with debris?

What you call mental bravery i would call ignorance to real world design and engineering. Ignorance and bravery are close relatives but not the same person.

Naysaying aint true engineeering grit IMO, Sgt-S.. how ever did aero-engineers cope with say.. icing issues?
..inc' ice debris being shed into various sensitve components (engine inlet ducts) in flight..
..& that brings up another thing.. reliability of 'fans'( airscrews & associated drives)..
.. these will - surely - have been sorted by aero-types some time ago.. no?

Instantaneous down-force capable spool up/clutching issues (F-35,shudder) .. notwithstanding..

Have you ever sat through a design review? Youve got to be critical of concepts before choosing any design forward.

And have you never heard of airplanes going down due to bird strikes? Im not talking icing issues, im talking about sucking up trash and the associated reliability with the large vacuum youve installed. Throw a barrel of marbles in a fan and see what happens. Lastly...did you seriously compare a turbine to a belt driven fan?

If were thinking alternatives, i would go with more active aero. Anything to combat the penalty of following too closely in turns. Active aero is a bit more realistic but nasr literally just proved what mistakes can be made with active aero even just warming tires.

[sgth0mas]

Naysaying aint true engineeering grit IMO, Sgt-S.

My take is that naysaying is very much true engineering grit. You've got to be a pragmatist, and you've got to be able to squash or table some propositions so you can step back and ask, "What do we really need to be focusing on here?" Can't chase up every willy-nilly idea, otherwise you have no time for the real problems.

This is exactly true...especially during a concept phase. Why spend 10 million for an inferior solution while you can spend 2 million for a better solution. These are arbitrary numbers, but experienced professionals typically get together to review these concepts before detailed design work kicks off so youre spending money much more wisely and optimizing resources.

[J.A.W.]

A turbine is really a form of glorified fan - isn't it?

& in the way same way foreign object deflectors were developed for certain aero-uses,
then surely, similar basic - long proven - principles could be applied for racing purposes..

[sgth0mas]

It may be a glorified fan to a non technical person, but the mechanisms, materials, dynamics and overall operating principles are immensely different. Even operating a turbine near the ground can pose major problems...just look at the problems with the M1 abrams and sand ingestion...now add sticky rubber to the mix and a chamber that seals airflow to the ground.

I dont think its worth it for me to continue this discussion here because its obvious there is a lack of understanding of the engineering process...logic and technical merit here is replaced by a desire to argue.

If anyone want to continue the dialogue for this, feel free to draw up a concept design that actually starts to detail how it would work and we can go from there...but i have no interest in an argument thats so far removed from proper technical content.

[PlatinumZealot]

Im a mechanical design engineer, I do this in the real world. Thats why its hard for me to join in on this fantasy stuff and support it.

Do you know how "easily" you can design a system to not spit debris? Do you know the materials to use? Do you know what happens when it becomes clogged with debris?

What you call mental bravery i would call ignorance to real world design and engineering. Ignorance and bravery are close relatives but not the same person.

I am a mechanical engineer too and I know many engineers who tend to back down from the unknowns. I have had many coworkers who play it safe.. afraid to get things wrong... those who just say nope! that aint working! Unsuprisingly they never come up with any innovative improvements for the company.

Look at the Nissan LMP1 GTR. A few years ago if you had told anyone a front wheel drive car with 65% front weight distribution can be genuine LMP1 competitor they would bite your hand off. Look at it now. A bit unfortunate they can't get the electric differential right but..impressive peice of engineering. But anyway... this fan-boost Idea is eccentric yes, but it's just posted for fun. "Autogyro's gearbox" and the "Felix's Ideas" threads didn't cause the website to implode did they?

[sgth0mas]

Yeah but this isnt an unknown...its been done by at least 2 different teams in 2 different series.

Im all for having fun and conceptualizing, but im also going to point out a bad direction. Maybe an open ended thread about the desired result (better cornering without front wing wash) will gove you the fun brainstorming youre looking for. But in engineering you also have to be willing to accept whem theres a better solution.

Out of curiousity, what in the broad relm of mechanical engineering do you do?

[PlatinumZealot]

Naysaying aint true engineeering grit IMO, Sgt-S.

My take is that naysaying is very much true engineering grit. You've got to be a pragmatist, and you've got to be able to squash or table some propositions so you can step back and ask, "What do we really need to be focusing on here?" Can't chase up every willy-nilly idea, otherwise you have no time for the real problems.

We don't have to play in the safe zone. We are only on the internet chatting. No money will be spent. No one will die.
Besides, where is the fun in naysaying? What would engineering if it was full of pragmatic naysayers?

As per the practicality of the proposed system. Instead of Drag reduction device you know have an F1 anathema... a "free" Downforce making device. Two sides of the coin. In physics terms one makes you faster on the straights the other makes you faster in the corners. You won't lose as much tyre life in dirty air. I think it is quite practical.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yeah but this isnt an unknown...its been done by at least 2 different teams in 2 different series.

Im all for having fun and conceptualizing, but im also going to point out a bad direction. Maybe an open ended thread about the desired result (better cornering without front wing wash) will gove you the fun brainstorming youre looking for. But in engineering you also have to be willing to accept whem theres a better solution.

Out of curiousity, what in the broad relm of mechanical engineering do you do?

I didn't really mean this as an open solutions brainstorming thread, as this is the proposed concept itself. So it is open to criticism and of course to generate ideas from this concept. There are many other "dirty air" threads over the years. This is a new idea of implementing regulated use of a small fan on present day cars with the purpose of minimizing the effects of dirty air.

I do lots of stuff depends on the project or problem people want to solve.

[PlatinumZealot]

How can i get this idea noticed by the FIA?

[Silent Storm]

How about movable side skirts made of flexible material?? It will be hydraulically operated like DRS and the gain and loss in downforce would be more consistent and linear I guess.
The device would weigh less than a fan and will be more reliable. If the device fails then the driver can continue to drive with normal downforce levels and if the mechanism fails to retract the skirts then it's the drivers lucky day!! But as I said the whole mechanism will work similar to how DRS operates and the chances of it failing are less compared to say a whole new device.

[PlatinumZealot]

A long wall of flexible titanium bristles can be used
In the place of skirts. But that is a different technical discussion on its own.

[DiogoBrand]

I came here to rant because I thought you were talking about that ridiculous fan boost from Formula E

[sgth0mas]

How about movable side skirts made of flexible material?? It will be hydraulically operated like DRS and the gain and loss in downforce would be more consistent and linear I guess.
The device would weigh less than a fan and will be more reliable. If the device fails then the driver can continue to drive with normal downforce levels and if the mechanism fails to retract the skirts then it's the drivers lucky day!! But as I said the whole mechanism will work similar to how DRS operates and the chances of it failing are less compared to say a whole new device.

So basically the lotus 78 with a drs lever to drop the skirts...pretty interesting concept (though thats also been banned).