Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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CHT
CHT
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 05:24

Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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From a technological point of view, I think the V6 formula with its fancy recovery system is great if you are a technological junky. However in terms of real world application in motor racing, I do find it a total disaster.

F1 cars today, is looking very much like an more expensive, muted version of poorly built GP2 car that is difficult to drive,, cant be driven flat out through the race, doesnt send vibration to your spine. Its like getting a Vertu that cost $20,000 instead of a more functional, more powerful and cheaper iPhone.

Personally, I have stop following races, I have terminated my cable, I have stop updating my F1 apps, and I am starting to pity the F1 drivers for having to put of a brave face in front of media.

If we are going to put a V10 Minardi on the grid with the V6 right now, I am sure it will be a highlight of the race weekend purely because is sound right, it looks right and it can go flat out lap after lap.

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Jordan44
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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Fans contradict themselves so much. No one knows what they want so I'm not surprised we're not going anywhere. They call for more difficult cars to drive saying these cars are too easy but now apparently the current cars are poorly built GP2 cars that are difficult to drive and that's a bad thing.

The engines are not the issue. When is someone gonna wake up and see that. Last year we saw great racing throughout the field. The torque levels that these V6s provide make it harder to drive than the EBD V8s planted to the floor, and that's a good thing for entertainment. The problem this year, is that Ferrari and Lotus seem to be the only team making any strides and that's left several teams in no mans land, and we still have a team out in front. There is no issue with fuel saving. We've had eras before where fuel saving was common, but the viewers were never aware because there is no team radio. And therefore there was no moaning.

If you think changing the regulations in 2017 is going to neuter the field, it's not. Faster cars may be more entertaining, but it doesn't solve the issue of dominance. Someone will get it right first time and dominate again, like Mercedes. It happens after every big regulation change. And to resolve it, we need stability. Just let everyone catch up by opening up the regulations and being fairer on what people can do with their engines.

The V6s need to be kept, and they need to go ahead with the 2017 regulations. But they then need to be left there for 3 or 4 years so all the teams figure what they're all about. If the racing on track is good, fans wont care for the noise. People go to watch WEC because it provides good entertainment, there's hardly any noise at all and you don't see people complaining. In fact most people I spoke to who had never been to a race didn't expect the V8s to be that loud. So if they're not expecting it, it doesn't matter.

Jolle
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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I think the V6 not only has very useful tech for the real world (just think of city busses with a F1 style recovery system) but for future racing engines as well. It's next to impossible to build a cheap, hi-revving V8/10 etc that can do lots of miles. With a small, low revving turbocharged engine with fancy electronics that will be cheaper over time you can. Expect in a few years time a Ford duratec engine with a big turbo and a heat recovery system that will last a season.

CHT
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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J0rd4n wrote:Fans contradict themselves so much. No one knows what they want so I'm not surprised we're not going anywhere. They call for more difficult cars to drive saying these cars are too easy but now apparently the current cars are poorly built GP2 cars that are difficult to drive and that's a bad thing.

The engines are not the issue. When is someone gonna wake up and see that. Last year we saw great racing throughout the field. The torque levels that these V6s provide make it harder to drive than the EBD V8s planted to the floor, and that's a good thing for entertainment. The problem this year, is that Ferrari and Lotus seem to be the only team making any strides and that's left several teams in no mans land, and we still have a team out in front. There is no issue with fuel saving. We've had eras before where fuel saving was common, but the viewers were never aware because there is no team radio. And therefore there was no moaning.

If you think changing the regulations in 2017 is going to neuter the field, it's not. Faster cars may be more entertaining, but it doesn't solve the issue of dominance. Someone will get it right first time and dominate again, like Mercedes. It happens after every big regulation change. And to resolve it, we need stability. Just let everyone catch up by opening up the regulations and being fairer on what people can do with their engines.

The V6s need to be kept, and they need to go ahead with the 2017 regulations. But they then need to be left there for 3 or 4 years so all the teams figure what they're all about. If the racing on track is good, fans wont care for the noise. People go to watch WEC because it provides good entertainment, there's hardly any noise at all and you don't see people complaining. In fact most people I spoke to who had never been to a race didn't expect the V8s to be that loud. So if they're not expecting it, it doesn't matter.
Many of "great" racing last year has got to do with safety cars closing up the gap, messing up the order, and that LH was unfortunately to suffer more DNFs than Rosberg. I am sure if you gather F1 drivers for an international kart race, it will be even more exciting to watch.

For someone who have never watch a V8 or V10 F1 race, they will never understand the excitement and thrill in F1, not to mention the urge of coming back to experience the thrill and noise again.

Unfortunately, the only reason for keeping the V6 formula is to help manufacturer justify their sunken cost in engine development as I dont see how keeping the same muted engine packed with technology that is not visible and audible to fans is going to make F1 more exciting. The biggest danger of course is if Bernie and FIA tries to introduce gimmick to spice up the already comical show.

If F1 doesnt change, it will only further alienate more F1 fans and turning F1 races weekend into music festivals.

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SectorOne
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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I don´t understand how pushing out 600 plus god damn horses out of 1,6 liters can sound bad in any way.
Especially now that Mercedes too has gone conventional on the exhaust, acquiring some of that slight howl the Ferrari and Renault engines have.

raise the volume really loud and tell me that sounds bad.




It has it´s own character and obviously does not sound like a V10 or any n/a engine.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

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SilverArrow10
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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No. The engine's are just being used as an excuse for the more serious problems in F1. Tightening rules, run off areas, unfair share of the money, Bernie, Renault and Honda not being up to it, infighting and everyone is just talking down stuff when it isn't even that bad. The radios are also giving a bad image because everything the driver had to look after during Canada would have been even worse in decades gone by. The engines and noise are fine, I don't understand the fixation with the noise I watch racing for the racing its not a radio show. The technology is amazing, the efficiency is incredible and there is great racing going on in the WEC so the hybrid engines are not to blame themselves.

The racing hasn't been great because of the competition not the technology. Mercedes, Ferrari and Williams are clear 1, 2 and 3. All the other teams right now just want to survive and Red bull just like to moan full stop. We are just going through a rough patch and its a big rough patch because it made Canada a forgettable race, but even then there are still some great racing going on.

The most exciting, loudest and fastest formula 1 cars were in 2004, and boy was it boring...
"Leave it to Lewis Hamilton to ruin Redbull's day" - Martin Brundle

"Ok Lewis, Its Hammertime!!" - Peter Bonnington

"Fresh tires, 15 laps. What do you think Lewis Hamilton is going to do?" - Martin Brundle

CHT
CHT
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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Try listening to this and you will know whats missing


CHT
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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SilverArrow10 wrote:No. The engine's are just being used as an excuse for the more serious problems in F1. Tightening rules, run off areas, unfair share of the money, Bernie, Renault and Honda not being up to it, infighting and everyone is just talking down stuff when it isn't even that bad. The radios are also giving a bad image because everything the driver had to look after during Canada would have been even worse in decades gone by. The engines and noise are fine, I don't understand the fixation with the noise I watch racing for the racing its not a radio show. The technology is amazing, the efficiency is incredible and there is great racing going on in the WEC so the hybrid engines are not to blame themselves.

The racing hasn't been great because of the competition not the technology. Mercedes, Ferrari and Williams are clear 1, 2 and 3. All the other teams right now just want to survive and Red bull just like to moan full stop. We are just going through a rough patch and its a big rough patch because it made Canada a forgettable race, but even then there are still some great racing going on.

The most exciting, loudest and fastest formula 1 cars were in 2004, and boy was it boring...
quality racing and entertainment value are two very different thing. kart race is exciting to watch, but no one will pay big money for it.

For a F1 spectator, what you are seeking for is thrill of being close to the noise and the car. If a person wish to follow the race action, they will be better of watching it on TV.

So 2004 is boring, what about 2003 and 2005?

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Andres125sx
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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Agree with Jord4n, IMO V6 are one of the few things FIA did correcly on last decade. It was frozen V8s with 7 years old designs what was a joke for F1, now they can´t develop engines freely, but even so it´s a lot more than they could do 2 years back

BTW, many people complain about drivers who can´t push hard, and I agree, that´s a problem. But that´s not caused by engines, but by tires.

Saving fuel only means they need to release the throtle some meters before usually, let the car go some meters, and move the braking point some meters forward because of the speed they´ve lost since they released the throttle due to drag, but that´s all, the braking will be as strong as usually, only a bit shorter. It´s even more demanding for the driver as he need to adapt the braking point to the coasting he´s doing, so it´s more dificult for the driver because there will be various braking points for each corner depending on coasting or not, and how much coasting.

And corners are the same saving fuel or not, as the exit, nothing change. What I mean drivers push to the limit no matter if saving fuel or not


But tires... that´s another story. When they need to save tires first thing they need to do is decrease cornering speed specially on fast corners, so then they´re not pushing to the limit. Apart from the obvious (racing without pushing to the limits???) it also reduces chances for driver mistakes, races become predictable, and driver role is even less important than usually. That is a problem IMO, but it´s not related to the engine as some people think

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SilverArrow10
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Joined: 10 Mar 2013, 20:46

Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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CHT wrote:
SilverArrow10 wrote:No. The engine's are just being used as an excuse for the more serious problems in F1. Tightening rules, run off areas, unfair share of the money, Bernie, Renault and Honda not being up to it, infighting and everyone is just talking down stuff when it isn't even that bad. The radios are also giving a bad image because everything the driver had to look after during Canada would have been even worse in decades gone by. The engines and noise are fine, I don't understand the fixation with the noise I watch racing for the racing its not a radio show. The technology is amazing, the efficiency is incredible and there is great racing going on in the WEC so the hybrid engines are not to blame themselves.

The racing hasn't been great because of the competition not the technology. Mercedes, Ferrari and Williams are clear 1, 2 and 3. All the other teams right now just want to survive and Red bull just like to moan full stop. We are just going through a rough patch and its a big rough patch because it made Canada a forgettable race, but even then there are still some great racing going on.

The most exciting, loudest and fastest formula 1 cars were in 2004, and boy was it boring...
quality racing and entertainment value are two very different thing. kart race is exciting to watch, but no one will pay big money for it.

For a F1 spectator, what you are seeking for is thrill of being close to the noise and the car. If a person wish to follow the race action, they will be better of watching it on TV.

So 2004 is boring, what about 2003 and 2005?
fantastic and that proves my point, we could have a brilliant season next year with the same engines, and as I'm still an F1 spectator what I want to see is a great race, the engine noise doesn't bother me and I can still get as close to the cars as before, even closer since they wont make my ears bleed. If you are talking about low ticket attendance then that is entirely down to the price of the tickets, which is Bernie's fault for making the tracks pay so much to host a race, again unfair share of money. Nothing to do with engines.
"Leave it to Lewis Hamilton to ruin Redbull's day" - Martin Brundle

"Ok Lewis, Its Hammertime!!" - Peter Bonnington

"Fresh tires, 15 laps. What do you think Lewis Hamilton is going to do?" - Martin Brundle

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Andres125sx
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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CHT wrote:Try listening to this and you will know whats missing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKQMt01rKiQ
A date with the otorhinolaryngologist? :mrgreen:

CHT
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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Andres125sx wrote: BTW, many people complain about drivers who can´t push hard, and I agree, that´s a problem. But that´s not caused by engines, but by tires.
Actually it has got to due to power delivery of the PU, particularly the ERS.

Here is another good sound track to compare various engine sound. Its no brainer what most spectator will prefer to watch.


CHT
CHT
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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Andres125sx wrote:
CHT wrote:Try listening to this and you will know whats missing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKQMt01rKiQ
A date with the otorhinolaryngologist? :mrgreen:
The 1st lap is the most important part of the race. With all 22 roaring V8 or V10 engine come roaring towards you. And those are the kind of experience which you will never forget

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Andres125sx
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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CHT wrote:
Andres125sx wrote: BTW, many people complain about drivers who can´t push hard, and I agree, that´s a problem. But that´s not caused by engines, but by tires.
Actually it has got to due to power delivery of the PU, particularly the ERS.
No, it´s the poor tires that can´t cope with that because Pirelli was asked to manufacture weak tires intentionally

We´ve even seen some races when this tires couldn´t cope with one single lap pushing hard, when 30 years back there was tires that coped with 1400bhp turbo engines perfectly (for qualifying). That´s the problem, current tires, not PUs delivery

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Andres125sx
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Re: Is the V6 formula a disaster for F1?

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CHT wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:
CHT wrote:Try listening to this and you will know whats missing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKQMt01rKiQ
A date with the otorhinolaryngologist? :mrgreen:
The 1st lap is the most important part of the race. With all 22 roaring V8 or V10 engine come roaring towards you. And those are the kind of experience which you will never forget
I loved V10 sound, but there´s a long list of things I´d change in F1 before even considering sound as a problem.

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