But this always happens if some drivers are mentioned in the thread´s title. It should been more accurate to say "which car was better? A or B?".flynfrog wrote:what if that member was completely off topic and trying to turn a thread a thread about cars into a driver argument? Again this thread has nothing to do with drivers. If you cant stay on topic you will have to sit at the kids table.
This!ChrisM40 wrote:LOL at people trying desperately to quantify this. The drivers are not equal
ChrisM40 wrote:LOL at people trying desperately to quantify this. The drivers are not equal, so using points etc isnt going to get anyone anywhere. For what its worth i think Lewis has always had a much better team mate than Vettel has except in 2008 and arguably 2014 (I dont rate Webber that highly). That makes his cars seem better proportionally than Vettels if all you do is look at team points.
Its seems fairly obvious that the 2010-2013 RB was the best car, by some margin when in the hands of a driver that suits it. It was best in the last half of 2009 as well. The McLaren was probably best in 2008, but only just, and in 2007 it was a toss-up between it and the Ferrari, with unreliability you could argue otherwise though. 2010-12 the Mclaren was likely 2nd at best, maybe third, behind the 'designed for Alonso' Ferrari.
The 2013 Merc was fast, but as an overall package, 3rd, maybe.
Of course the 2014 Merc was by far the best, but it being totally dominant doesn't mean lewis has had an easier time throughout his career, this is why using points is a stupid way to try to quantify it. The RB being 2nd in 2014 is besides the point when it was VERY VERY 2nd.
PlatinumZealot wrote: This!
Switch them around.. put Hamilton in Vettel's winning cars and VEttel in Hamiltons and lets see how it goes:
Rookie Vettel against Alonso in 2007 and 2008. Alonso stays at Mclaren he loves his teammate. Vettel is a nice little boy in 2007. Vettle settles into number 2 as Alonso rides into 4XWDC territory. The Spanish Schumi? Or so we thought! Alonso jettisons the 2009 silver donkey and goes to Ferrari in 2010! Hamilton the defending champion's RB6 is unassailable as Alonso's championship bid is curtailed with 4 races left on the calendar. My how that Hamilton loves his diffuser blown. Meanwhile Vettel Vs Button in 2010 to 2012..Vettel gets trounced by the wily Button in speed and race craft and departs to Mercedes with Schumacher his idol handing down the mantle.
Finally no more inch wide eyebrows just nice pretty blond hair on the ticket. The Vettel Vs the "fastest German" Rosberg in 2013 to 2015. A Deutschland dream team! This is one battle everyone is looking forward to. A too hot to handle spongy mass of cerebral matter, Rosberg dominates the Wunderkind! But alas he only achieves 2nd in the WDC. A silvery 2014 gives Mercedes board members second thoughts on their magical PU106 lump in the back of that championship RedBull... It is now 2015 and what is this?! The RedBulls are nowhere with their new Renault Power unit! And not even the TDG can drag the heavily revised Ferrari into contention! Keke trims his mustache in honour as Rosberg is on his way to his first WDC. Vettel has been left wanting in qualifying and the unfortunate modus operandi at Mercedes he backs up Nico to the end. Hmm, wonder what life is like at Mclaren he thinks to himself as he lays his new Mercedes contract proposal on his baby momma's coffee table..
Wins 20.. WDC 0... Podiums 55
The RedBull Rookie everyone has been talking about! Mercedes engines follow Hamilton to Torro Rosso. It Hammer time Hamilton Vs the Karting Kilotini Liuzzi in 2007. Luizzi is flattened like lasagna and Hamilton gets the call to the senior Red Bull team. Mercedes engines follow suit. The RedBull wins in Silverstone and Monza. Two feathers in Hamilton's cap. The Ageing and ever rectangular Coulthard is bashed into retirement. Hamilton Vs Webber 2009 to 2013. Hamilton strings together 5 Championships in this time. Well who could predict that one. The old Aussie leaves proudly knowing he went against the best under equal status. Hamilton Vs Ricciardo 2014. With the Mercedes engine in the back for one last season the Hammer hits the nail one more time and the Championship is his. Word is Adrian Newey is leaving and Ham starts prowling the paddock. There is an opening at Ferrari as a frustrated Alonso is set to depart. Hamilton takes up the mega million pound offer to lead the stable back into glory but all in not as nice as it seemed. This will take some time... Hamilton Vs Kimi 2015. A thorough tonking like no other sends the Ice man back into the freezer. Was this the right decision? Hamilton ponders if it was the right choice to come to Ferrari as he pats his white tiger called Ron on the head.
Wins 68, WDC 6, Podiums 94, Pole positions 71
My my. Sad to see a snotty nose brat glide his way through F1 for 8 years with no form of character building whatsoever. People still scoff at his six hollow championships.. Who is he to say he is Senna! He has never faced a strong team mate! Look at his cars! All Newey Rocket ships! uggh... I hate Formula 1!
who cares? We are not comparing drivers here.gray41 wrote:^^^
Does this mean you think Hamilton is better?
I think you completely missed the point here, at least if you were referring to my post as drivel. Its about trying to determine which cars the driver have had were the best relative to the other cars in the field any given year. There is almost no way to determine that with points and winnings stats since each team has different drivers. Certainly the McLaren is flattered in 2010-2012 by having 2 world champions in the team, the RB is made to look less good because one driver was strong and one was weaker (sorry Mark..). No one in their right mind is going to claim the 2010-2013 RB wasnt the best car in the field by some way, if not at the start of the season, then certainly by 2/3 distance.flynfrog wrote:ChrisM40 wrote:LOL at people trying desperately to quantify this. The drivers are not equal, so using points etc isnt going to get anyone anywhere. For what its worth i think Lewis has always had a much better team mate than Vettel has except in 2008 and arguably 2014 (I dont rate Webber that highly). That makes his cars seem better proportionally than Vettels if all you do is look at team points.
Its seems fairly obvious that the 2010-2013 RB was the best car, by some margin when in the hands of a driver that suits it. It was best in the last half of 2009 as well. The McLaren was probably best in 2008, but only just, and in 2007 it was a toss-up between it and the Ferrari, with unreliability you could argue otherwise though. 2010-12 the Mclaren was likely 2nd at best, maybe third, behind the 'designed for Alonso' Ferrari.
The 2013 Merc was fast, but as an overall package, 3rd, maybe.
Of course the 2014 Merc was by far the best, but it being totally dominant doesn't mean lewis has had an easier time throughout his career, this is why using points is a stupid way to try to quantify it. The RB being 2nd in 2014 is besides the point when it was VERY VERY 2nd.PlatinumZealot wrote: This!
Switch them around.. put Hamilton in Vettel's winning cars and VEttel in Hamiltons and lets see how it goes:
Rookie Vettel against Alonso in 2007 and 2008. Alonso stays at Mclaren he loves his teammate. Vettel is a nice little boy in 2007. Vettle settles into number 2 as Alonso rides into 4XWDC territory. The Spanish Schumi? Or so we thought! Alonso jettisons the 2009 silver donkey and goes to Ferrari in 2010! Hamilton the defending champion's RB6 is unassailable as Alonso's championship bid is curtailed with 4 races left on the calendar. My how that Hamilton loves his diffuser blown. Meanwhile Vettel Vs Button in 2010 to 2012..Vettel gets trounced by the wily Button in speed and race craft and departs to Mercedes with Schumacher his idol handing down the mantle.
Finally no more inch wide eyebrows just nice pretty blond hair on the ticket. The Vettel Vs the "fastest German" Rosberg in 2013 to 2015. A Deutschland dream team! This is one battle everyone is looking forward to. A too hot to handle spongy mass of cerebral matter, Rosberg dominates the Wunderkind! But alas he only achieves 2nd in the WDC. A silvery 2014 gives Mercedes board members second thoughts on their magical PU106 lump in the back of that championship RedBull... It is now 2015 and what is this?! The RedBulls are nowhere with their new Renault Power unit! And not even the TDG can drag the heavily revised Ferrari into contention! Keke trims his mustache in honour as Rosberg is on his way to his first WDC. Vettel has been left wanting in qualifying and the unfortunate modus operandi at Mercedes he backs up Nico to the end. Hmm, wonder what life is like at Mclaren he thinks to himself as he lays his new Mercedes contract proposal on his baby momma's coffee table..
Wins 20.. WDC 0... Podiums 55
The RedBull Rookie everyone has been talking about! Mercedes engines follow Hamilton to Torro Rosso. It Hammer time Hamilton Vs the Karting Kilotini Liuzzi in 2007. Luizzi is flattened like lasagna and Hamilton gets the call to the senior Red Bull team. Mercedes engines follow suit. The RedBull wins in Silverstone and Monza. Two feathers in Hamilton's cap. The Ageing and ever rectangular Coulthard is bashed into retirement. Hamilton Vs Webber 2009 to 2013. Hamilton strings together 5 Championships in this time. Well who could predict that one. The old Aussie leaves proudly knowing he went against the best under equal status. Hamilton Vs Ricciardo 2014. With the Mercedes engine in the back for one last season the Hammer hits the nail one more time and the Championship is his. Word is Adrian Newey is leaving and Ham starts prowling the paddock. There is an opening at Ferrari as a frustrated Alonso is set to depart. Hamilton takes up the mega million pound offer to lead the stable back into glory but all in not as nice as it seemed. This will take some time... Hamilton Vs Kimi 2015. A thorough tonking like no other sends the Ice man back into the freezer. Was this the right decision? Hamilton ponders if it was the right choice to come to Ferrari as he pats his white tiger called Ron on the head.
Wins 68, WDC 6, Podiums 94, Pole positions 71
My my. Sad to see a snotty nose brat glide his way through F1 for 8 years with no form of character building whatsoever. People still scoff at his six hollow championships.. Who is he to say he is Senna! He has never faced a strong team mate! Look at his cars! All Newey Rocket ships! uggh... I hate Formula 1!
Complete drivel. Nothing quantified missing the entire point of the thread. We are comparing cars, There are two cars per team so its not down to individual drivers. Trying to compare two world championship drivers and thinking they are vastly different is nothing but fanboy wishing.
Ok thats cool. I do think trying to rewrite history is pointless (as PlatinumZealot tried to do). However, with the exception of the W05 and 6 Vettel did have an 'easier time' of it than Hamilton.flynfrog wrote:Sorry Chris it was more directed at the wall of text after your post. If you look at the driver points across the teams I don't think Le mans Champion Mark's totals are out of family with any of the other drivers in the cars we are talking about. I don't have time this moment to look at all of the data. If any thing the mix of cars in the drivers positions the first few seasons tells us the cars were pretty close.
The last good example was Kimi in 2003. Yes, he didnt win but only three points made the different when he had only achieved one victory during the hole season.Just_a_fan wrote:I think people also forget the reliability of the modern F1 car. Look back through the years and people were winning the title with only 1 or 2 race wins in the season. Cars were falling by the wayside all over the place, and drivers were getting killed too. You didn't need the absolute fastest car if the fastest car was also fragile. You just needed to be able to score points consistently.
Today a driver needs to score heavily in almost every race to stand a chance of competing for the title. Being dominant means being fast and reliable not one or the other.
Look at how many multiple race winners there are in the modern era who haven't won the title. Hell, some years the guy in third or fourth has more wins in the season than many old WDC holders had in their entire F1 careers.
