Aston Martin to enter F1?

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SectorOne
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Re: Aston Martin to enter F1?

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http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... ll-tie-up/
Mercedes has rubbished suggestions that a tie-up between Aston Martin and Red Bull would help them secure a supply of its engines.

A report in trade magazine Autocar suggested that Aston Martin was looking at a return to F1 with Red Bull for 2016, in a deal that would give the Milton Keynes-based team Mercedes engines.

This is despite Mercedes having resisted recent overtures of a partnership with Red Bull and having long been against supplying power units to the energy drinks giant's outfits.

But although Aston Martin CEO Andy Palmer and director of marketing communications Simon Sproule may be eager for such a deal to happen – having engineered a similar tie-up with Red Bull when they worked at Infiniti – Mercedes insists there is no substance to its part in any partnership.

Niki Lauda, Mercedes non-executive chairman, told Motorsport.com: "There's not even a discussion. No discussion at all. I haven't heard anything from them and we never talked about it. I have breakfast every morning with Helmut [Marko] so I should know.

"We never thought about it because we have four teams running our engines, so we don't even have capacity."


Renault shuffle

Red Bull has previously insisted that it would see out its Renault contract until the end of 2016, although the situation could change if its French manufacturer partner buys Lotus.

Such a deal would also free up a supply of Mercedes engines, but Lauda said it was not a matter that his company was thinking about.

"Who knows? I've no idea. We have contracts with all of them. We cannot do more than what we have, and that's it."

Red Bull friction

A Mercedes tie-up with Red Bull has been ruled out several times over recent years, which made the suggestions of a deal through Aston Martin surprising.

Lauda acknowledged that there was personal animosity between Red Bull boss Dietrich Mateschitz and Mercedes, and further reluctance to do any kind of deal has only increased because of the intense criticisms its Milton Keynes-based rival has levelled at Renault.

"It starts with Mateschitz," said Lauda. "Mateschitz had, for whatever reason in the past, I don't know what. I don't know the reasons, to be honest."

Another Mercedes source told Motorsport.com: "Red Bull have been asking [for engines] since February 2014 – they ring up every week! If you see how they've treated Renault they are not a good partner to have..."



So according to Lauda if this deal will even remotely happen Renault needs to buy Lotus and put their own engine in that car.
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FoxHound
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Re: Aston Martin to enter F1?

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multisync wrote:And did you hear they had a VIP tour round a different F1 team with a view to buy 2 weeks ago.....?
No, I didn't hear that.
But if so, have you heard of due diligence before committing to F1? Aston Martin will/should explore every avenue before committing to enter, should they succeed.

@sectorone

There could be a massive domino effect waiting to happen. I agree it won't sit perfectly well with Mercedes for RB to use their engines, but it could make sense if it keeps RB in the sport and the level of competition rises.

My view here is that a Mercedes proper beating a Merc powered RB is worth more than what we have today.
And should Mercedes lose, a Merc powered engine would have won. Obviously never as clear cut as that, but it has some mileage to it.
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multisync
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Re: Aston Martin to enter F1?

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FoxHound wrote:
multisync wrote:And did you hear they had a VIP tour round a different F1 team with a view to buy 2 weeks ago.....?
No, I didn't hear that.
But if so, have you heard of due diligence before committing to F1? Aston Martin will/should explore every avenue before committing to enter, should they succeed.
.
Of course I know all about DD 8)

I also know that the Renault fell through due with the same team to one of the owners insistence on remaining involved and Renaults insistence on him not.

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Juzh
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FoxHound wrote: My view here is that a Mercedes proper beating a Merc powered RB is worth more than what we have today.
Merc have proved time after time they're unable to beat RB with somewhat equal engine.

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Hail22
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In reply to SectorOne as well as a question:

We need to also remind ourselves of the rumor that Renault are looking to take over Lotus F1 and rebrand it as their works team, now there are many ways this could be done without showing ill will to Lotus F1 contractual obligations to Mercedes Benz:

- Lotus F1 declares bankruptcy and begins to administratively disolve the company yet still physically retaining machinery, wind tunnels, staff assets etc where Renault F1 would step in and purchase the license of Lotus F1 once all contractual obligations have been disolved due to bankruptcy.

This then opens a sourcing slot for Aston Martin / Red Bull, but alas this is all hypothetical mumbo jumbo on my end :|

My question in the end, is my thought remotely possible without knowing the full details of MB / Lotus F1 engine agreement?
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Jonnycraig
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Re: Aston Martin to enter F1?

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Juzh wrote:
FoxHound wrote: My view here is that a Mercedes proper beating a Merc powered RB is worth more than what we have today.
Merc have proved time after time they're unable to beat RB with somewhat equal engine.
But they couldn't control how RB used that engine like they do now with Williams, Lotus & TR.

As Jonathan Neale said, McLaren are better off floundering at the back with Honda, and a minimal chance of them turning it around, than they are with a Mercedes and no chance of beating the factory team.

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FoxHound
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Juzh wrote:
FoxHound wrote: My view here is that a Mercedes proper beating a Merc powered RB is worth more than what we have today.
Merc have proved time after time they're unable to beat RB with somewhat equal engine.
Mercedes could do nothing on the engine front to overcome their deficit to Red Bull between 2010-2012.
Frozen regs.

And they proved that they could challenge them in 2013, if you recall Horner stating they were serious challengers that year.
All within frozen engine regs.
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FoxHound
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Jonnycraig wrote:
Juzh wrote: Merc have proved time after time they're unable to beat RB with somewhat equal engine.
But they couldn't control how RB used that engine like they do now with Williams, Lotus & TR.

As Jonathan Neale said, McLaren are better off floundering at the back with Honda, and a minimal chance of them turning it around, than they are with a Mercedes and no chance of beating the factory team.
That was a clear parting shot at Mercedes. Have you seen the PR emanating out of Woking recently? :wink:
Williams and Force India have contractually stipulated equality with the factory team. Unsure of Lotus.
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SectorOne
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Juzh wrote:
FoxHound wrote: My view here is that a Mercedes proper beating a Merc powered RB is worth more than what we have today.
Merc have proved time after time they're unable to beat RB with somewhat equal engine.
Red Bull themselves had admitted even with a Merc engine they would still be behind.
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Sevach
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This is all a huge mess, the wishes of Mercedes the company might conflict with Mercedes the team...

ScottB
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Sevach wrote:This is all a huge mess, the wishes of Mercedes the company might conflict with Mercedes the team...
Well the engines are made by Mercedes HPE, assuming it's completely owned by Merc outright, with the team being part owned by Merc, Wolff and Lauda I think? So I guess it depends on what contractual arrangements are in place; does the team have a veto over who gets engines? If they don't then it's the companies call I guess...

multisync
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Re: Aston Martin to enter F1?

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FoxHound wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote:
Juzh wrote: Merc have proved time after time they're unable to beat RB with somewhat equal engine.
But they couldn't control how RB used that engine like they do now with Williams, Lotus & TR.

As Jonathan Neale said, McLaren are better off floundering at the back with Honda, and a minimal chance of them turning it around, than they are with a Mercedes and no chance of beating the factory team.
That was a clear parting shot at Mercedes. Have you seen the PR emanating out of Woking recently? :wink:
Williams and Force India have contractually stipulated equality with the factory team. Unsure of Lotus.
What do you mean by stipulated equality as if you believe customer teams are getting the same engine as Merc use then I would love to see some evidence as I have been told by at least 2 team members of one of those mentioned above that this isn't the case.

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SectorOne
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Although Wolff maintained no talks have yet commenced, he said the door was 'open'.

"There are no discussions ongoing, nothing has been started, but you need to consider all the options," he said.

"I'm leaving the door open."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119860
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Edax
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multisync wrote: What do you mean by stipulated equality as if you believe customer teams are getting the same engine as Merc use then I would love to see some evidence as I have been told by at least 2 team members of one of those mentioned above that this isn't the case.
That was indeed what FI and Lotus said.
However, it isn't a criticism shared by Force India and Lotus, with the latter – which switched from Renault to Mercedes power in 2015 – insisting it has a contract which stipulates parity.

“Being in the unique situation that we've had a contract with both Renault and a contract with Mercedes, I can confirm that we, in the Mercedes contract, it is stipulated that we have complete parity. In the Mercedes contract,” said Lotus CEO Matthew Carter.
clicky

But FI also said that new updates were rolled out to Merc first and then to customer teams.

Another source of difference could be in selecting the engine. When hand building a small series of complex machines, you inevitably end up with a small variation in production quality and performance. I don't know if the engines are specific builds for the teams. Otherwise it might be that due to their position merc is able to have the first pick from a production batch, based on dyno performance. That would probably give them a small advantage.

multisync
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They say they do and they say they don't don't. usual F1 double speak. FI cannot afford to upset Merc by giving the impression they get B grade engines in effect Merc are not playing fair.
Similarly, Force India's Bob Fernley shrugged off suggestions it isn't getting fair treatment from Mercedes, but points out it would be reasonable to assume the factory team will get first use of new developments.

“Coming from a Force India point of view, I've no complaints at all from Mercedes. They've delivered everything we've ever wanted. We've been with them now for six or seven years and we have absolutely no issues that they are supplying us the same as they are.

“However, one also has to accept that they are a works team and there are going to be development programmes that come in that will automatically go there first and then trickle down to all the customer teams.
Bob is basically saying Merc get the newest spec and FI get them afterwards on the 'trickle down' effect. IE no parity

There is also no mention of FI having a parity stipulation (only Lotus) and the recent engine upgrade would allude to that.

Whilst it would be nice to believe the engines are the same (blueprinting errors excepted) it's just not the reality. Customer engines are behind to varying degrees and possibly the trickle down effect is used as a bargaining tool with the invoice is in the pending tray (FI) or perhaps they are getting too close for comfort (Williams)