Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Post Reply
TheScrutineer
3
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 22:28

Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

Hi,

With news of Ground Effect being proposed by the strategy group I was inspired to investigate an write an article on my blog:



Would be interested to hear your feedback and thoughts.

Thanks

Dman

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
550
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

So you can put them on your blog? 8)
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

TheScrutineer
3
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 22:28

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

Yes why not if they are sensible and intelligent enough I don't mind running a feature at the end :)

User avatar
Vasconia
6
Joined: 30 Aug 2012, 10:45
Location: Basque Country

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

That would be great but it was removed in the past due to its dangerous nature. I wish it could return because the cars were able to fight to each other in a way we have almost forgotten.

krisfx
14
Joined: 04 Jan 2012, 23:07

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

Don't F1 cars still technically use ground effect? Diffusers, floors & front wings are all still very close to the "fixed surface" of the floor.

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

I´m asking for this for a long time. I think with the return of active suspensions it will be feasible and safe. Obviously there´re some considerations, and it should be limited on many aspects to avoid too much downforce, but it´d be awesome

Unfortunately, people in charge is not too prone to changes this big, same for fans :(

User avatar
Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

I think most people underestimate the magnitude of "simply switching the car's to ground effect". Its a complete redesign of the concept of the vehicle from zero and it will throw up dozens of problems. Not because the concept is bad but the normal problems that you get in any engineering project when you start from a clean sheet. For every one thing which people complain about in F1, there's 10 things which are right and you risk throwing all that away if you start from zero.

All the problems may very well be solvable, but it will take 5-10 years to put everything in order and no-one have the patience for that. Look how quickly people get bent out of shape when there is a boring race and how quickly they are happy again after a single good one.

Its a massive massive risk. To reduce the risk someone, e.g. the strategy group or the FIA, need to invest millions in a lot of offline R&D with running prototypes if you want a clean switch of the regulations from wings to ground effect.
Not the engineer at Force India

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

Tim.Wright wrote:For every one thing which people complain about in F1, there's 10 things which are right and you risk throwing all that away if you start from zero.
Dirty air what makes overtaking too difficult so racing is pretty boring maybe on 80% of the races. What are the 10 things wich are right and you risk throwing away?

I think the problem is too big, so big it´s worth assuming those risks because current aero rules are responsible for boring races. BTW, when I see a good race I don´t think about how good F1 is, but about how good it could be with better aero rules because if we still can see some action with these rules, with better ones it will be awesome.

Domination periods and boring races, IMO, are the main responsible for the drop F1 is suffering both in TV audience and in track attendance, what also causes some venues to desist from hosting a gp like Germany, France, etc. and all that is directly related to current aero rules that causes lack of competitiveness

What I mean is current aero rules are the biggest problem current F1 suffer (apart from Bernie), so the massive risk is continue with same direction, not promoting a massive change. I don´t see any future for F1 in the medium to long term if things continue this route

sgth0mas
3
Joined: 18 Mar 2015, 03:42

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

Just watch indycar if thats what you want. They use Ground efffects and have closer racing.

User avatar
Sniffit
1
Joined: 05 Feb 2015, 23:42

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

sgth0mas wrote:Just watch indycar if thats what you want. They use Ground efffects and have closer racing.
That is hardly due to ground effect but rather the standardised format.

Ogami musashi
32
Joined: 13 Jun 2007, 22:57

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

Tim.Wright wrote:I think most people underestimate the magnitude of "simply switching the car's to ground effect". Its a complete redesign of the concept of the vehicle from zero and it will throw up dozens of problems. Not because the concept is bad but the normal problems that you get in any engineering project when you start from a clean sheet. For every one thing which people complain about in F1, there's 10 things which are right and you risk throwing all that away if you start from zero.

All the problems may very well be solvable, but it will take 5-10 years to put everything in order and no-one have the patience for that. Look how quickly people get bent out of shape when there is a boring race and how quickly they are happy again after a single good one.

Its a massive massive risk. To reduce the risk someone, e.g. the strategy group or the FIA, need to invest millions in a lot of offline R&D with running prototypes if you want a clean switch of the regulations from wings to ground effect.
The ground effect proposal for F1 is the same as in GP2, so it doesn't go as far as to a complete redesign. And it works well in GP2. The only thing that is much more difficult is that you have to ponder in the freedom of dev vs safety.

sgth0mas
3
Joined: 18 Mar 2015, 03:42

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

Sniffit wrote:
sgth0mas wrote:Just watch indycar if thats what you want. They use Ground efffects and have closer racing.
That is hardly due to ground effect but rather the standardised format.
Oh i agree. Im just saying if you want ground effects and closer racing that series already exists. The ground effects do allow them to follow much closer however with less detriment.

User avatar
FW17
165
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

Ogami musashi wrote: The ground effect proposal for F1 is the same as in GP2, so it doesn't go as far as to a complete redesign. And it works well in GP2. The only thing that is much more difficult is that you have to ponder in the freedom of dev vs safety.

F1 needs complete GE not some interpretation of Dallara's

Complete GE and tyres for all the grip with no reliance on wings other than for balancing.

wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

Andres125sx wrote: Dirty air what makes overtaking too difficult so racing is pretty boring maybe on 80% of the races.
This exact same dirty air existed in the 70s, 80s, and 90s as well(don't forget the 00s!), they overtook perfectly fine and created the races that people always cling back to in arguments of how awful racing today is.
What are the 10 things wich are right and you risk throwing away?
The whole formula as a whole counts as a pretty big one?
so big it´s worth assuming those risks because current aero rules are responsible for boring races.
In the 80s they ran with huge barn door wings, I'm certain that those would create much more dirty air than cars do now.
Domination periods[/qute]
The vast majority of F1s history is through one team dominating all. If that's a problem, then how come so many people watch it these days? If that truly was a problem then F1 would never have taken off.
and boring races
All opinion. It's pretty much something that can't be won. Because if one thing is "fixed" they'll find another thing to complain about, and that was Tim's point when he said "For every one thing which people complain about in F1, there's 10 things which are right".

It's simple; No one says a thing when everything is okay, people only complain about what is wrong.
IMO, are the main responsible for the drop F1 is suffering both in TV audience and in track attendance, what also causes some venues to desist from hosting a gp like Germany, France, etc. and all that is directly related to current aero rules that causes lack of competitiveness
Yet, people were with masses in Grandstands when a team dominated and lapped the whole field on a regular basis.

F1 has never been as close as it is now, and it never has been as competitive either(apart from a few odd years). Your complaint about domination is not much of a complaint. It's nothing more than a complaint about the natural order of things, you want it to change? Good luck reinventing society as a whole.

You see it everywhere, one team, one group of people excells above the rest, and when perspective changes, so does another. It goes on and on and on, and it is impossible to stop that, or to prevent that. Unless you of course want to ban the dominant team just because.
What I mean is current aero rules are the biggest problem current F1 suffer (apart from Bernie), so the massive risk is continue with same direction, not promoting a massive change. I don´t see any future for F1 in the medium to long term if things continue this route
No. Tim is right on this. You are just promoting a massive change just because a few people don't like something. You've got absolutely no guarantee of success for an significant change in appearance as a whole. Plus, the same complaining people will find something new to complain of, because that's what they do.

So in the end, you've got something new, something that people who were okay with the old setting might not like at all, just to keep a group of people that complain, and afterwards still complain, happy.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Facts Only
188
Joined: 03 Jul 2014, 10:25

Re: Ground Effect - Bring It Back

Post

The cars already have ground effects, its just very tightly controlled. All those vortices used to 'seal the floor' are just trying to replicate the side skirts of the early 80's.

I was once chtting to an engineer from one of the smaller teams and he told me that a few years ago they were doing some control tests in the wind tunnel and so ended up putting skirts along the side of the floor to stop the floor interating with the rest of the car, the result was that with the same floor but physically sealed the car gained ~600kg of downforce instantly. Perhaps its total BS but ground effects are an incredibly powerful tool.

Personally I see wings as an antiquated technology, they are an inneficient way to create downforce not in line with road car tech or at the cutting edge. Look at the fastest road cars La Ferrari/918/P1/Huyara only one proper wing between them and thats fully active.

Personally I think that the limits should be gradually loosened but even a tiny relaxation in the rules may open a huge can of worms. Perhaps a Maximum downforce limit could be introduced to stop an all out aero war. The cars are already transmitting suspension load data so it wouldn't be beyond the realm of current tech to monitor downforce trackside live. That would push the aero teams to lower the drag while remaing at the maximum downforce which actually would be relevant to the real world.

Who knows? Not me.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

Post Reply