WHAT is Honda doing to Jense??

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captainmorgan
captainmorgan
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Joined: 03 Feb 2006, 20:02

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That's an interesting point, and might bring light to exactly why Button has never won (this is not a Button bashing post).

It seems fair to say that Button IS a very smooth driver, maybe one of the smoothest. I'm pretty sure this is at least true for throttle control, as described by commentators. I'd guess this extends to braking and overall integrated driving (is that true?).

However, even assuming that, does that make him a fast driver?

I forget exactly how a graph of slip angles works, but basically it can describe how precisely (and therefore skilled) drivers can stay on the limit. I bring this up because, if Jensen is driving smoothly all the time and never triggering traction control, that doesn't necessarily mean he is an excellent driver.

It means we don't know if he's actually driving at the limit. He could be driving way before the limit, and not using all available grip.

In fact, it might be argued that the best drivers are the ones who occasionally go past the grip limit but are fast enough to correct the mistake. This provides a feedback cycle so that the driver can learn to stay at maximum grip under varying conditions.

Im wondering now if we can tell which drivers are which by examining parade lap footage, noting which drivers seem to have best car control while doing left and rights and 'squiggles' (not sure what to call it)

So, which driver is Button? Does he use all available grip, or is he just always conservative?

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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
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I wonder if the lack of grip on Honda's car is because they are not running a lot of mechnical grip? Could it be that Renault has awesome grip at the start of cold tires because of trying to utilize a lot of mecnical grip instead of aerodynamics?
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

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vyselegend
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006, 17:05
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There is something I don't understand. Everybody seems to put the fault on the honda when it's about the pathetic grip level they had here, but didn't you see how much Fernando was aggressive with his tyres, and how shy was Jenson. There is one driver wich is heavily shaking his car to put heat in the tyres, and the other one wich is making poor little zigzags as they usually do in "normal" conditions. For me it's obvious JB was way too smooth on his tyres. Now I wonder if he was afraid of spinning (like Montoya) or just trying to be conservative on his tyres. Does someone knows if Honda used the same compound as Renault?

anna87
anna87
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Joined: 14 Mar 2006, 23:29

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Sawtooth-spike wrote:May i point out something,

Yes button has made some stupid contracts in his time and some days he lacks the finshing touch. But he is still the Smoothest Driver out there, If they got rid of traction control he would be stomping all over everybody.

Yes he has not won a race yet, but he came P3 in 2004 win 10 podium finshs. The Honda he has always seems just a little wanting when it come to the race. But in qulifying this weekend, he had more fuel than the renaults and did a MUCH faster lap.

Yes he needs to win, But he is still one hell of a driver
He is a smooth driver...i agree.....but not under preassure.....
Jenson cant drive under preassure for nuts.........

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Sawtooth-spike
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Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 15:33
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Really, i have yet to see any proof of that statement, if you car has no Grip, keeping the fastest car on the track behind you is no all that easy.
I believe in the chain of command, Its the chain I use to beat you till you do what i want!!!

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johny
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Joined: 07 Apr 2005, 09:06
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alonso is very hard getting hot his tyres, in spanish gp last year he made a blister in the warm up lap, button just made tiny zigzags and also alonso was so near him when he pushed, you can't claim a lack of grip on a straight

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Sawtooth-spike
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no but iu can blame the entry and exit of the last corner, which set alonso up for the overtake
I believe in the chain of command, Its the chain I use to beat you till you do what i want!!!

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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
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Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

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vyselegend
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006, 17:05
Location: Paris, France

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thanks m3_lover. So he really was afraid of spinning... I'm sure he's not a coward, so if he say that the car was probably horrible to drive. But it is like a cursed cycle, if you've too much oversteer, you're afraid of shaking the car, but if you don't, your tyres stay cold and oversteer improves...

RacingManiac
RacingManiac
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 02:29

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this is what I don't understand, he said he can't do what the others were doing to heat up his tire, because he was afraid of potentially spinning out. But if that's what you need to do to win, thats what you need to do. Michael crashed out, because his car was understeering too much, but he was still pushing, not laying back and hope it gets better. If he wants to win he needs to step up his game and change his mentality....

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mep
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
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johnywrote:
you can't claim a lack of grip on a straight
You can because your engine delivers more force than your tires can
convert into speed. Thats why tires spin.
If you suffer oversteering you first have to heat up you rear tires by
acceleration and then your front ones by driving zig-zag.

ginsu
ginsu
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Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 02:23

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Jense is totally making excuses for either fear or inexperience. Alonso worked so vigorously to get heat into his tires and Jense was sitting there like a moron slowly following him. I lost alot of respect for Jense in Oz with Alonso showing him how it's supposed to be done the whole time. I think we can see why he has not won a race yet, he just doesn't have the confidence or the mindset.

Here's a hint Jenson. If you're suffering from too much oversteer than do zig zags while you're on the throttle. The weight transfers to the rear and cures the oversteer.

Also, Jenson don't give up just because you're in second place. It's so obvious he stopped fighting as hard as soon as he lost position to Alonso.
I love to love Senna.

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Scuderia_Russ
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Joined: 17 Jan 2004, 22:24
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Personally I'm amazed at the flack Jenson has received this season when you look at the miserable, cringe worthy performances being turned in by Rubens Barrichello!

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Principessa
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Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 14:36
Location: Zottegem Belgium

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I have said this before, but I really really don't understand why Honda still hasn't given young Anthony Davidson his change in a race seat! He's performing really well during the free practice sessions as he also did last year. He's good driver and I think that he deserves a race seat! He hasn't the experience Rubens has, but see what happens, the Brazilian is really f*cking up all the races he was in a Honda so far! I hope it changes soon, otherwise they have to sack him and take 'Ant' as team mate of Jenson!

I also believe that Jenson can do better....It seems to me that he is bit afraid to take his first victory! I believe that he could have done better this weekend. Okay, he had engine failure, but I believe that he got passed by the other drivers too easy!

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Scuderia_Russ
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Joined: 17 Jan 2004, 22:24
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Principessa wrote:I have said this before, but I really really don't understand why Honda still hasn't given young Anthony Davidson his change in a race seat!
A friend and I were having exactly the same conversation at the weekend. He knows the car intimately and used to regularly beat Button when they were karting together. Honda have missed a trick in my opinion. (Wouldn't be the first time though)